Insurance Question

[Larry T]

Hey all,

Newly minted PP and looking to purchase my first plane.  I was initially thinking of a M20J for a 2nd airplane, but then got a lot of advise to "buy your 2nd or 3rd plane first".  When I checked with an insurance guy recommended by my buying agent, he pretty much told me that most providers won't even touch me as a new PPL with a Mooney, and/or would require at least 300 hrs.  He said if we could find someone to insure the plane, it'd likely be somewhere around $6-7K.  This would be coverage for me, as well as my 2 sons who are also new PP's.  I intend to train for my instrument and one of my sons plans to go all the way through ATP.

Question is for those who were/are fairly low time pilot's, how much is your insurance and who are you going through?

Thanks for the assist.

-Larry

[smccray]

@Parker_Woodruffcan comment on insurance (writes a lot of Mooneys).

I transitioned to a J at 90 hrs total time.  15 hrs transition training, 10 solo before passengers. Cost was reasonable- maybe $3500 on a $100K plane?  That was ~10 years ago and things have changed, so.. ask someone smarter than me!  The Mooney was a lot of airplane.

[Larry T]

10 years makes a lot of difference.  He said that something like 4 main providers closed up shop over the last 1-2 years and the remaining ones are a lot more picky about their coverage.  I was hoping I could get away with rates similar to yours, with transition hours, of course.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Larry T

[Parker_Woodruff]

Assuming a $100K airplane...It's doable but look for $4500-$6000 for your first year.  Year two with a good amount of RG time for all pilots involved should be $3K or less.

6 months ago I probably could have done this for $3500.

Parker@airspeedinsurance.com

214-295-5055

[Danb]

Speaking with a client an airplane insurance broker, I asked questions regarding  the 2nd PPP, he mentioned even though he lost some business his income went up significantly so no PPP and I’ll have a higher premium next month. Not many business’s can lose clients with associated increases in gross income, many of my clients are in dire straits due to the pandemic 

[kortopates]

I think you'll find its just going to be expensive rather than impossible to insure. Even in this tight market I just finished transition training a mostly C172 pilot, whom just got his IR, into a M20R. And I've also transition trained a C172 pilot into a 231 which I don't really recommend - but its very doable. And currently I am training a student pilot for his Private in a nice J - but its taking him perhaps more than 3x the hours than if he had completed his private training in the C172 first. (Although going through 3+instructors that didn't have expertise in Mooney's before finding me added considerabe time to his journey too.)

Edited February 10, 2021 by kortopates

[RobertGary1]

Number of pilots can affect it too. After a certain number they start to rate you as a club. Not sure if that number is 3 or 4.

Imagine what its like for the twin owners.

-Robert

[Hank]

The key is for each of you to get good transition training from a CFI who really knows Mooneys [see kortopates' post above].

The second key is for each of you to log at least 100 hours in the Mooney. I hit 100 hours almost exactly my first year, and insurance went way down; the initial quote was at the same high rate until I pointed out 100 Mooney hours. I bought my C with 62 hours in my logbook and 8 more prepaid in the school's 172.

[Ross Statham]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

I think you'll find its just going to be expensive rather than impossible to insure. Even in this tight market I just finished transition training a mostly C172 pilot, whom just got his IR, into a M20R. And I've also transition trained a C172 pilot into a 231 which I don't really recommend - but its very doable. And currently I am training a student pilot for his Private in a nice J - but its taking him perhaps more than 3x the hours than if he had completed his private training in the C172 first. (Although going through 3+instructors that didn't have expertise in Mooney's before finding me added considerabe time to his journey too.)

Spot on.  I deal with a lot of different types of insurance policies at work, including our aviation insurance over the years.

One of the biggest lessons that I was taught several years ago by a friend (a lot smarter than me) was that I should speak to several different aviation insurance brokers, and get several quotes.  There are a great number of people every year who are transitioning to complex and high-performance aircraft, and they’re dealing with the same problem. As noted above, insurers are in business to make money, and they don’t make money if they don’t sell policies.  I have also learned that to re-shop my insurance every two years, just to keep everyone honest.

Guess what? That same advice also applies to our general liability, errors and omissions, data breach and workman’s comp, too.  We shop around, get good policies from reputable companies and save money.  Free market economy.

What you’re hearing casually so far isn’t real data, which you can get by spending a couple hours on the telephone and filling out applications. Safe flights!

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Larry T.

Hang out for a bit, and we can discuss Mooney flying for low time pilots...

Many of us have been there and done that over the years...

Parker has been there too... Now he is a great insurance guy for many MSers...

The MS CFIIs have seen many low time pilots through this situation as well...

Don’t be turned away... get informed... pick up some hours... get some training...  the first year can be more expensive... but it only lasts a year...

You have come to the right place!

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

43 minutes ago, Ross Statham said:

Spot on.  I deal with a lot of different types of insurance policies at work, including our aviation insurance over the years.

One of the biggest lessons that I was taught several years ago by a friend (a lot smarter than me) was that I should speak to several different aviation insurance brokers, and get several quotes.  There are a great number of people every year who are transitioning to complex and high-performance aircraft, and they’re dealing with the same problem. As noted above, insurers are in business to make money, and they don’t make money if they don’t sell policies.  I have also learned that to re-shop my insurance every two years, just to keep everyone honest.

Guess what? That same advice also applies to our general liability, errors and omissions, data breach and workman’s comp, too.  We shop around, get good policies from reputable companies and save money.  Free market economy.

What you’re hearing casually so far isn’t real data, which you can get by spending a couple hours on the telephone and filling out applications. Safe flights!

There are probably 2-3 underwriters who are willing to write such a policy and each of these brokers is going to quote those same 2-3 underwriters. 

[Vance Harral]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Number of pilots can affect it too. After a certain number they start to rate you as a club. Not sure if that number is 3 or 4.

The partnership -> club number is 5, at least as of 2 months ago.  We just added a 4th partner to our partnership, so that's pretty recent info from one broker plus Avemco.

[Larry T]

1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Assuming a $100K airplane...It's doable but look for $4500-$6000 for your first year.  Year two with a good amount of RG time for all pilots involved should be $3K or less.

6 months ago I probably could have done this for $3500.

Thanks for the info Parker. 

Let's say I purchase a fixed gear and get my IR and a ton of hours over the next few years, but still limited RG time.  What does the rate picture look like?  Obviously you won't know about 5 years from now, but what would that look like today?

[Larry T]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Number of pilots can affect it too. After a certain number they start to rate you as a club. Not sure if that number is 3 or 4.

Imagine what its like for the twin owners.

-Robert

And I'll need at least 3, possibly 4, plus any CFI that might be used.  I suspect that's why I was quoted as such but he didn't specifically say so.

[AerostarDriver]

Just now, Larry T said:

Thanks for the info Parker. 

Let's say I purchase a fixed gear and get my IR and a ton of hours over the next few years, but still limited RG time.  What does the rate picture look like?  Obviously you won't know about 5 years from now, but what would that look like today?

My 2021 quote was 2500 for 75K Hull on an M20E with a Commercial ASEL + Instrument Rating, ~275 hours with ~50 RG and ~10 hours in a Mooney. The instrument rating and having RG time will drive the cost down a bit.

[smccray]

1 hour ago, Larry T said:

Thanks for the info Parker. 

Let's say I purchase a fixed gear and get my IR and a ton of hours over the next few years, but still limited RG time.  What does the rate picture look like?  Obviously you won't know about 5 years from now, but what would that look like today?

Perhaps your insurance cost is lower in that scenario, but after you factor in the transaction cost, even if you jump strait to the $3k per year policy, you come out way behind compared to paying the higher year one for the Mooney.  You can’t win!  It’s a question of lower cost up front vs a lower overall cost.

who knows what happens to the insurance market over the next few years, but I’ll bet you still pay a premium (maybe a smaller premium with a few more hours) for zero RG time.

If you really want to ruin your math, compare your estimated fuel bill of a M20J vs a 182 or any of the other planes you would be looking at. Make sure you compare cost per mile not cost per hour.  150 ktas @ 9gph vs 135 ktas on 14?  It doesn’t get much better than a J model balancing operating cost against airframe age.

Let us know when you start shopping for a plane born in Kerville...

[Larry T]

I think, maybe, it might be cheaper to wait until all my offspring are completely and fully independent and I no longer have to pay for....

Oh, wait... That'll never happen.  Shit!

[tmo]

9 hours ago, kortopates said:

I've also transition trained a C172 pilot into a 231 which I don't really recommend - but its very doable.

Why do you not recommend it? Genuinely curious, I went from 95% of 80h in a C152, 4% in a Tecnam and 1% in an Arrow to a M20K and loved the challenge, and I'm not that good of a pilot to be an outlier statistic. Only wish I had access to an instructor familiar with the Mooney.

[Ibra]

28 minutes ago, tmo said:

Only wish I had access to an instructor familiar with the Mooney

European Mooney problems 

My insurance asked for check flight with an instructor before flying M20J, neither me nor the instructor had "proper Mooney transitions", just complex time (mostly Arrows) and a good day of reading the AFM/POH !

Luckily, I had some past flying on E & K with other experienced owners as pax and even worse as their instructor  

Edited February 10, 2021 by Ibra

[tmo]

Pretty much the way it went down for me. Insurance said "10h with a qualified FI". Hangar neighbor has current FI. I asked "Want to fly a plane?" he says "Sure, looks neat". We go over POH and a bottle of wine one evening, he says "Well, looks like a plane, let's do it.", I add some Mooneyspace wisdom. Next weekend we spend an hour playing with the buttonology to get a feel for the cockpit, and off we go.

I missed the "do not do touch-and-goes" and the "push when going around and be gentle on the throttle" parts from MS, but that became apparent pretty quick. These two, plus the "know landing weight and resulting stall speed and WATCH IT" and "on 2nd bounce GO AROUND" are the main things for me.

10h later he asks "Where do I sign?" and I lecture him about FCL.710 and the VP, RU and T endorsements, which he summed up with "Write it up, tell me where to sign."

I am sure I have plenty of bad habits and could be a much better Mooney driver, but I'm hoping to get there at my own pace without breaking anything.

Really hoping we can make it to the Summit this year.

End of thread drift.

To add a useless data point, insurance for the 1st and 2nd year was identical, and not totally outrageous, but we more than made up the difference in fuel cost.

[Hank]

5 hours ago, smccray said:

If you really want to ruin your math, compare your estimated fuel bill of a M20J vs a 182 or any of the other planes you would be looking at. Make sure you compare cost per mile not cost per hour.  150 ktas @ 9gph vs 135 ktas on 14?  It doesn’t get much better than a J model balancing operating cost against airframe age.

Even my C burns 10% less fuel than a 172 in any given trip, and does it in ~30% less time. Thentime savings become larger as headwinds increase, and that also increases the fuel savings.

[Parker_Woodruff]

10 hours ago, Larry T said:

Thanks for the info Parker. 

Let's say I purchase a fixed gear and get my IR and a ton of hours over the next few years, but still limited RG time.  What does the rate picture look like?  Obviously you won't know about 5 years from now, but what would that look like today?

Probably $3000-$3500.  The cost of switching airplanes will more than eclipse the first year's insurance hit.  Especially if sales taxes are involved...

[kortopates]

7 hours ago, tmo said:

Why do you not recommend it? Genuinely curious, I went from 95% of 80h in a C152, 4% in a Tecnam and 1% in an Arrow to a M20K and loved the challenge, and I'm not that good of a pilot to be an outlier statistic. Only wish I had access to an instructor familiar with the Mooney.

Simply because its a huge step up in complexity and takes a lot of hours for someone with no complex/rectactable and high performance time. As you know as an owner, the 231 is the hardest Mooney engine to manage due to the fixed or manual wastegate and it takes a lot of time for a new pilot to get comfortable taming such a stead. I expect I could have gotten him there in about 1/3 to 1/2 the time if it was a J or even a 252. When I owned a 231 and my wife was completing her Private many years ago, knowing she wasn't going to be happy with the complexity of the 231, I took an opportunity to upgrade to a 252 which was much easier for her to handle. It made us both a lot happier .

[FlybyNite]

22 hours ago, Larry T said:

Hey all,

Newly minted PP and looking to purchase my first plane.  I was initially thinking of a M20J for a 2nd airplane, but then got a lot of advise to "buy your 2nd or 3rd plane first".  When I checked with an insurance guy recommended by my buying agent, he pretty much told me that most providers won't even touch me as a new PPL with a Mooney, and/or would require at least 300 hrs.  He said if we could find someone to insure the plane, it'd likely be somewhere around $6-7K.  This would be coverage for me, as well as my 2 sons who are also new PP's.  I intend to train for my instrument and one of my sons plans to go all the way through ATP.

Question is for those who were/are fairly low time pilot's, how much is your insurance and who are you going through?

Thanks for the assist.

-Larry

As a student learning on 231, I was quoted $5600CAD for a 150KCAD hull. My instructor is an out of work Airline pilot (737), he didn't have any experience flying a Mooney and to him its also just a plane.

Next week or so I'll be doing my check ride with the bare minimum hours so it is doable. The plane already had a camera mount on the underside of the wing and I happen to have a go-pro already to it was nice to watch the footage of my landings when doing circuits to see what the underside looked like and have that relate to what I was experiencing in the left seat.

 My 231 was upgraded to a merlin waste gate and has an 830JPI engine monitor so I felt that didn't add much more complexity, but if I has to watch all the old analog gauges it would have been overwhelming.

One thing I think helped me was NOT learning how to land in a C172 as I learned GUMP's from the get go and really controlling my altitude and speed when landing. When I had to do spins and stalls after about 10 hours in the Mooney, I landed the C172 after the lesson and man it was easy! On my 3000' runway I don't have alot of time to let it float or try to force it down, if I'm out of position with either too high or too fast, and for what ever reason leading me up to that point, it's a go around, my pride isn't hurt with a balked landing.

I am hoping that once I get that 100Hr mark and get my IR that the price will come down significantly. I recommend going to the plane you want and that will fulfill your mission instead of buying an interim one. 

 

I can give you my insurance agent and who is the underwriter is, but it's Canadian so not sure if they do cross border polices. 

That's my experience so YMMV

[PT20J]

@Parker_Woodruff, just wondering if there is any difference in rates for hull coverage between a Cirrus and Mooney with comparable equipment and hull value for a  pilot with significant experience, instrument rated , etc. and 500 hours in each type.

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