O-360-A1D Lycoming Factory Reman

[flyer7324]

Well I plunked down the 6000.00 deposit and signed the contract with AirPower for the factory reman. My core is a narrow deck that's been running fine and has 2300 SMOH which I had done by Pine Mountain in 2000. I was considering another overhaul with Pine Mountain but John at Pine Mountain actually advised against it and to go the factory reman route. The price delta is about 7k and I'll be adding a SkyTec starter along with the Plane Power (Hartzell) generator to alternator conversion.

I'd like to hear from any list members that have experience with Lycoming Factory remans involving my engine model along with those who have experiences with the SkyTec starters and/or the Plane Power conversion.

Thanks and Happy New Year!!!!

[markgrue]

Is this overhauled or rebuilt?  Those are really the only terms that apply to returning an engine to a predetermined specification.  Overhauled is ensuring all the parts are within serviceable limits.  Rebuilt returns all parts to factory new limits.

 

Mark

[flyer7324]

Thank you for your response. The subject of this thread is an O-360-A1D Reman. As you know a remanufactured engine is not an overhaul.

[N201MKTurbo]

So, I’m overhauling my factory reman. I’m not impressed with the collection of parts I have to work with. Some of the parts have been superseded 3 times, yet there they are. There are 3 different part numbers of rocker arms and 3 different part numbers of push rods. The case was reworked by DIVCO and had oversized throughbolts, the crank was undersized. 
 

Not impressed.

 

[flyer7324]

Wow! I thought Factory Remans were rebuilt to NEW limits not to service limits. Obviously if that's not what you got since you've got both an undersized case and crank you should contact Lycoming. That's not good business on their part since you didn't get what you paid for which should have been a factory remanufactured engine built to new limits.

Thanks for the heads up though....

Sorry for your trouble.

[RLCarter]

That whole rebuilt, overhauled, reman and new are confusing to me, haven’t really dug too deep 

[flyer7324]

Factory NEW and Remanufactured I think are the only options now from Lycoming. New is obviously that....NEW. Factory Remanufactured are built up to NEW service limits and can use both new parts and parts that are used but are still dimensioned to NEW limits not undersized. At least that's my understanding of the process. 

[markgrue]

1 minute ago, flyer7324 said:

Wow! I thought Factory Remans were rebuilt to NEW limits not to service limits. Obviously if that's not what you got since you've got both an undersized case and crank you should contact Lycoming. That's not good business on their part since you didn't get what you paid for which should have been a factory remanufactured engine built to new limits.

Thanks for the heads up though....

Sorry for your trouble.

Since Lycoming doesn't remanufacture engines I was trying to determine what spec it was being repaired to.   It sounds like you are referring to a rebuilt engine which is returned new limits.   If it was overhauled to serviceable limits than that would explain the discrepancy 

 

Mark 

[flyer7324]

I believe you are correct. I'm purchasing a rebuilt engine with a Zero Time since rebuilt logbook. Thanks for the information and for correcting me. Was yours a rebuilt or a factory overhaul or something else?

[markgrue]

I bought an M20d/c with 360 hours since factory rebuild.  It now has about 500 hours on it and I couldn't be happier.   It has been completely trouble free and I  like not having to put any money into it.   

 

Mark 

[PT20J]

There is no such thing as “reman”. The correct term for a zero time engine from the factory is “rebuilt.” It is an engine built to new limits by the original manufacturer using new and serviceable used parts. It comes with a new serial number and a new logbook. 

Skip

[Hector]

1700 hours on a factory rebuilt for my 67C and I’m hoping it will make it to and past TBO. Engine still going strong. Skytec starter and alternator conversion was done 7 years ago and has been trouble free as well.


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[tigers2007]

I’m curious why an overhaul shop would recommend not going with an overhaul with his own firm. Did you consider a second opinion?

[flyer7324]

51 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

I’m curious why an overhaul shop would recommend not going with an overhaul with his own firm. Did you consider a second opinion?

The present engine is the original engine on my 62C. According to the logs it was overhauled and 872 hours since new in 1967 then again in 2000 by Pine Mountain. At the time of the second overhaul we replaced the cam, lifters and cylinders with new. Because of corrosion the rods were replaced with serviceable. The crank which was still new limits and had extensive corrosion. We thought it was going to be rejected but there was enough meat on it to grind it down to .10 mains and .06 rods which I believe is now service limits. The case was also milled by Divco.  Knowing the history of the 2000 overhaul we discussed overhauling it one more time and assuming the crank and case were still good, with new cylinders and cam and lifters probably looking at around 22k.  Of course a serviceable crank would add around another 3-4k and a case much more. We discussed the pros and cons of rebuilt v. field overhaul and he told me with rebuilt you get all new or new limits parts, the heavier wide deck case and roller tappets which only the factory can install. The con of course is the price which in my case was 29,500. If I waited until after the first of the year the price would be around 31k since Lycoming raises their prices about 5% a year. I'm also going to upgrade to a Plane Power (Hartzell) alternator and SkyTec starter, (only NEW Lycoming engines come with the starter.). In addition I get a zero time logbook, 2 year warranty and the TBO is now 2200 instead of 2000. So balancing all these factors we felt the extra expense was well worth it. 

[flyer7324]

I got second, fourth and fifth and more opinions. Most recommended going with the rebuilt. I think only two at most said they would take a shot with the overhaul.

[N201MKTurbo]

All this talk about new limits vs service limits is a bit of a red herring. The table of limits specifies how much wear a part is allowed before it must be rejected. A crankshaft that has been ground 0.010 undersized can meet the new limits for a crank that is ground 0.010 undersized. 
 

The problem is that crank cannot be reworked again. The allowed grinds are: 0.003, 0.006 and 0.010. If it is ground 0.010 it cannot be ground again and is junk after this run. Lycoming would put a 0.010 crank in a zero timed factory engine.

https://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/TLEngineDetail.asp?catID=33&prodID=452705
 

Check out the list price for a new one!

[N201MKTurbo]

Factory New – Everything in the engine or installed on the engine is brand new.  The engine has a zero time since new and zero time since major overhaul.  These engines are identical to what an OEM customer (such as Cessna or Piper) would be installing into their brand new aircraft.  New engines carry a two-year factory warranty up to the hourly overhaul period listed in Service Instruction 1009. This engine choice makes sense for the customer that likes to have the peace of mind of having everything be brand new.

Factory Rebuilt – Every part used in building the engine meets or exceeds new part specifications; or the engine is like new. It has a zero time since new and a zero time since major overhaul. Some parts may be used, but they meet the same specifications as a new part. Like new engines, this engine carries a two-year factory warranty up to the hourly overhaul period listed in Service Instruction 1009. This engine choice is for the customers who are looking to have a return on their investment by adding value to their airframe.

Overhauled – The parts used to build the engine meet or exceed service limits and specifications. The engine carries the previously accrued total time since new, but has zero time since major overhaul.   This engine also carries a one-year factory warranty up to the hourly overhaul period listed in Service Instruction 1009. An overhauled engine is best for the customer who is looking for the most cost-effective option, or for those who accrue hours very quickly and will likely run the engine through the next overhaul cycle. Some parts are no longer available new from the original equipment manufacturers, such as dual magnetos from Bendix/TCM. In these cases, those parts are overhauled by a reputable overhaul facility.

 

[flyer7324]

I appreciate your input very much. However I can't reconcile your statement that a crank ground to service limits would be considered "new" when the quoted description under the "rebuilt" definition states: "(s)ome parts may be used, but they meet the same specifications as a new part." Aren't the specifications for a new part the dimensions of the part when it is manufactured?

Edited January 3, 2021 by flyer7324

[N201MKTurbo]

24 minutes ago, flyer7324 said:

I appreciate your input very much. However I can't reconcile your statement that a crank ground to service limits would be considered "new" when the quoted description under the "rebuilt" definition states: "(s)ome parts may be used, but they meet the same specifications as a new part." Aren't the specifications for a new part the dimensions of the part when it is manufactured?

The only way that would happen is if they used new parts. They don’t. You pay twice as much for that. 
 

I noticed that a lot of parts has part numbers marked with an electric pencil with a -85 suffix. I was talking to the owner of our local engine shop and he said those parts were used in a Lycoming factory reman. He said Lycoming internally certifies them as being within new limits. I had some parts with very old part numbers on them that were reworked and the latest part number was engraved on the part with the -85 suffix. I had these parts overhauled by Aircraft Specialty Services. They are as new as what you get in a factory Reman, but far from new.

[EricJ]

I think if my engine ever goes TU I'm gonna consider a new IO-390.   Seems like a reasonable option these days.

 

[PT20J]

That’s why there is a price difference between new and rebuilt. The rebuilt has as many used parts as Lycoming can extract from returned cores. And, that’s why it is zero time since there is no practical way of figuring the time on all the various parts used. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but you should know what you are buying. I have found Lycoming to be very forthright about answering questions. I’m very pleased with my rebuilt engine.

My rebuilt IO-360 came with an alternator but no starter. I have a 149NL starter with about 250 hours on it (and a lot of short flights, so a lot of starts) and it’s been fine.

Skip

[DMM]

Sky-Tech Starter 149-NL installed 600+ hours ago, no problems. Plane Power Alt. installed 850 hours ago, no problems.

[flyer7324]

DMM Can you tell me the model number of the Plane Power Alternator you had installed?

[DMM]

@flyer7324Plane Power Alternator SAL12-70 was installed IAW STC SA10682SC.  

Edited January 3, 2021 by DMM

[cliffy]

On 1/3/2021 at 8:02 AM, flyer7324 said:

I appreciate your input very much. However I can't reconcile your statement that a crank ground to service limits would be considered "new" when the quoted description under the "rebuilt" definition states: "(s)ome parts may be used, but they meet the same specifications as a new part." Aren't the specifications for a new part the dimensions of the part when it is manufactured?

Not quite-

Lets just look at the crankshaft journal as one test

For Lycoming O-360 A models the Limits Table says that the NEW crankshaft journal can be 2.2485 to 2.250" dimeter

The wear limits are determined by the "fit" of the connecting rod to the crankshaft journal

The Overhaul manuals states the the "FIT" of the bearing to the journal can be  -0.0025 to  -0.0055  loose for a NEW part fit

Now if the bearing fit cannot make NEW fit max loose of 0.0055 loose on a used journal (allowing some journal wear) THEN maybe it can meet "SERVICE MAX" of -0.0060 loose  (1/2 a thousands of an inch more)

SO IF it doesn't meet 0.0060 dimensions then you can grind the crank .010 (10 thousands of an inch under size) you can still meet NEW parts tolerance by fitting the correct standard or oversize bearings into the connecting rod.  It has nothing to do with the "factory new journal diameter".

An engine can be field overhauled to NEW parts tolerances but if even one part is at 
SERVICE MAX" then the overhaul is considered a SERVICE LIMITS  overhaul. Total Time continues and hrs from OVERHAUL start to add up from 0.

Lycoming can do a NEW LIMITS REBUILD and certify it with  0 TIME LOG BOOK   No One else can do that BUT they in fact use USED PARTS  that meet NEW LIMITS for this operation.    You will have no idea how many total hours any factory "REBUILT" engine parts have. The factory doesn't track that. 

So you can see that an A&P can do a FIELD OVERHAUL to the same quality (new limits) that the factory can do but he just can't give it a 0 time log book and call it a REBUILT engine. 

A couple other small details that get over looked-

The factory overhaul manual (which the A&P in the case of a field overhaul has to follow) states an approved Break in regime to be followed after overhaul. Ground runs for specified times and then several test flights that need to be referenced in the log book sign off. Some A&Ps have been hung by the FAA for doing a break in different than that stated by the factory.   "Just takeoff and fly it like you stole it" comes to mind.

In addition- the overhaul manual calls for 
CERTIFIED engine gages for the break in runs EVEN if done in the airplane. If the gages are not all recertified (certified gages need to recertified every year) before the break in then the engine only has a "MAJOR REPAIR" INSTEAD OF AN OVERHAUL.  It can't be called an OVERHAUL by the book because he didn't follow THE BOOK procedures.

OH the pesky little details "-)

I don't have a life I just sit up at night reading these little bits a minutia.