TheStig Posted December 11, 2020 Report Posted December 11, 2020 Hello, I am looking for a low time airframe mdi nineties Ovation. Would love the 310 STC. Need FIKI, A/C, ideally O2. But don need fancy avionics. Will do an upgrade down the road. ADS-B is good but can manage without although that begs the question of when it last was flown.... 430/530W is good enough but others are better. Mid to HIGH TIME ENGINE is ok. If it has 300 hours or so left in it, I can live with that. Air brakes are nice too. Let me know what you want to part with. Thanks, Stig Quote
PhateX1337 Posted December 11, 2020 Report Posted December 11, 2020 ...all we know is, HE'S CALLED THE STIG! 1 Quote
carusoam Posted December 11, 2020 Report Posted December 11, 2020 The Stig has some strong skills... Proven to have good taste in planes too... we unmasked this one just a few posts ago... Good luck with the Hunt! The O is quite popular. GMax is showing only one in inventory... 200amu. https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listings/for-sale/aircraft/13?dscompanyid=6946&dlr=1&settingscrmid=614667 There is also @orangemtl Acclaim listed there as well... Go Long Body! Best regards, -a- Quote
TheStig Posted December 11, 2020 Author Report Posted December 11, 2020 Thanks guys. Going for 130-160AMUs if I can get it. Yes, I had my fingers on the tail feathers of a nice, good value FIKI ovation but I wasn't quick enough ...so close. But now I have gotten a taste for the long body w/ FIKI and the value that those higher time engine, basic IFR avionics planes that some guy has had and babied for many years and is ready to move up or out. I'll do the engine, put a Garmin suite in her in about a year G500 + GTN750/650 + A/P unless it has a good ol' one. JPI 900/930 and maybe a cnc panel. About $60-70k in avionics I figure. Engine, I like the IO-550 (had her on a C205) and with the prop I should be out another 50 bills. I figure I have a damn good plane for around 250-270AMUs. Don't tell anyone what I look like. That's supposed to be a secret. I might just have to change my avatar... I ping Jimmy every now and then but thanks for adding him. 2 Quote
StevenL757 Posted December 11, 2020 Report Posted December 11, 2020 Looking at your initial ask, then leveraging what you plan to do, you're more in the $170-190k range. Known-ice cert puts you into that pricing territory. Without AC and KI, I'd say a "fixer-upper" Ovation will be in the $140-$150k range. Add another 10-15k for AC, and another 20k or so for known ice. So assuming a generic cockpit with nothing special in it, plan on your starting airframe around $150k-$175k. Personally, I'd take AC off your list (unless you absolutely can't live without it), add an Arctic Air AC after-the-fact, and focus on your engine, prop, cockpit, and then interior...in that order. Jimmy and/or others can fine-tune this, but this my SWAG, given your orig. post. Steve 2 Quote
TheStig Posted December 11, 2020 Author Report Posted December 11, 2020 Thanks Steve. You might be right and there might be a good deal out there too. The one I almost had was $130k with a high time engine near TBO, FIKI, O2 ...don't recall on A/C and you might be right about the add on / after market for that. But I am putting it all out there. I think I can find the fixer upper with FIKI for a good deal. That's the one thing I don't want to have to put on afterwards. I can live with basic but WAAS IFR and an iPad. Engine is typically priced in and known cost / timeframe to replace (at least with shops I have worked with in the past). Avionics is usually better to have the previous owner have done for you but that's when it starts getting expensive... and the "value" drops. Anyway, we'll see. How often do you find yourself using the FIKI to punch through a layer? Did you ever or how often did you wish you had a Bravo to go higher? Thanks Quote
carusoam Posted December 11, 2020 Report Posted December 11, 2020 Use caution with the good deals.... It is not highly recommended to buy the lowest cost ship of any model... (or any brand) The update costs can be gigantic... even if you are doing the work yourself... The internet has made hiding good deals near impossible... barn/hangar finds don’t exist for Long bodies... There are just too few Long bodies ever produced... Check your insurance costs as well... adding multiple owners can have some odd affects related to their experience... The bottom end of the Os was near 150 amu a decade ago... Nicely appointed Os are going to be expensive... Bringing up a low end O to the nicely appointed range will soar past the 200amu range quickly... Repowering such a fine ship including everything fire wall forward can cost as much as a mid body Mooney... and take six months to get there... It can be a long road, but... it is worth it. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
StevenL757 Posted December 11, 2020 Report Posted December 11, 2020 14 minutes ago, TheStig said: How often do you find yourself using the FIKI to punch through a layer? Did you ever or how often did you wish you had a Bravo to go higher? Simple answers: Frequently, and never. With the equipment I have on board, (minus GFC500 autopilot - installation starting 12/21), my UL is presently 1005lbs (which will improve once the KFC150 goes away). With that and a light-to-moderate fuel load, I've occasionally worked to FL180 and even FL200 on long trips where necessary to get over or around weather. The 310STC helps in that regard, where the 280hp variant may not. The 115cf O2 system and Aerox mask give a comfortable experience. I fly 90% of all trips IFR, and even with a known ice-capable airplane, if I find myself needing to climb to those altitudes to get around anything hazardous for any length of time, I should be re-thinking the flight. Although the dispatch rate is dramatically higher than lesser-capable airframes, it's by no means 100%, so the limitations of man and machine need to be respected. Doesn't take away the fact that the Ovation is an absolutely phenomenal machine for long x-country trips. 2 1 Quote
TheStig Posted December 12, 2020 Author Report Posted December 12, 2020 3 hours ago, StevenL757 said: Simple answers: Frequently, and never. With the equipment I have on board, (minus GFC500 autopilot - installation starting 12/21), my UL is presently 1005lbs (which will improve once the KFC150 goes away). With that and a light-to-moderate fuel load, I've occasionally worked to FL180 and even FL200 on long trips where necessary to get over or around weather. The 310STC helps in that regard, where the 280hp variant may not. The 115cf O2 system and Aerox mask give a comfortable experience. I fly 90% of all trips IFR, and even with a known ice-capable airplane, if I find myself needing to climb to those altitudes to get around anything hazardous for any length of time, I should be re-thinking the flight. Although the dispatch rate is dramatically higher than lesser-capable airframes, it's by no means 100%, so the limitations of man and machine need to be respected. Doesn't take away the fact that the Ovation is an absolutely phenomenal machine for long x-country trips. Quote
TheStig Posted December 12, 2020 Author Report Posted December 12, 2020 That is a pretty bird you have and well equipped. Pretty much what I want to end up with. I’m also glad to hear that it’s a great match with your mission. I believe mine will be similar and confirms that I don’t need the turbo. What are some typical numbers for longer trips? Alt., speed and burn? Thanks for sharing Steve. Quote
carusoam Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 While we wait for Steven to return... My O1 was known to cruise... 175 kts using 15.5 gph ROP at 12.5k’ 165 kts using 12.5 gph LOP at 12.5k’ With 100gallons on board NJ to Mooney Summit in FL is a non-stop flight... The O3 powered O1 has a few more skills including it can cruise @2550rpm or 2700rpm at the cost of a few more gph... PIC’s choice. Stand by for Steven... he has a precision memory for these kind of details... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Schllc Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 Not many that have that combo in those years here is one. I looked at logs and aside from some minor DH when the plane rolled off its chicks, or wasn’t chocked. logs seem suspicious until you see pics of incident. nothing burger. UL is little less than 750, but it’s your wishlist and I think very close to a fair price. https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/195760273/2000-mooney-m20r-ovation2-piston-single-aircraft 1 Quote
carusoam Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 Livened Schllc’s link... https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/195760273/2000-mooney-m20r-ovation2-piston-single-aircraft -a- Quote
M016576 Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 5 hours ago, carusoam said: The bottom end of the Os was near 150 amu a decade ago... Nicely appointed Os are going to be expensive... Yes... this. a TKS system on either a bravo or ovation alone, even without a nice panel or low time engine, almost always puts the plane at/around 200K these days. Not saying it’s impossible to find one for 150... just that that price is pretty far below market value right now. 2 Quote
StevenL757 Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 1 hour ago, TheStig said: What are some typical numbers for longer trips? Alt., speed and burn? @carusoamprovided some good details. Real-world, I regularly use 6k to 8k for shorter trips, 10k - 16k for medium to long trips. Fuel burn at 12k is ~12.5gph, 174TAS. All LOP. I only really switch over to LOP when up north and the temps are frigid-cold. You typically don't want your CHTs below 250F, and often times, at LOP when I'm in Maine (frequently) during the winter, they'll get down close to that, so I bump up to ROP to keep things in check. I do have the cold weather plate that slides down in front of the oil cooler, so that helps block some of the colder air during those times. 1 Quote
V1VRV2 Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 Hello.... just thought I’d throw my .02 in. I was looking for the same plane. An Ovation with FIKI but not necessarily A/C. I found a plane that had both but A/C + FIKI isn’t common due to the hit on useful load. My plane has an 817# useful load. The situation in the market presently is that there are almost no Ovations for sale. Ovations with FIKI are non existent right now that fit your description. If you want FIKI your going to have to grab whatever comes to market and negotiate a fair price. Supply and demand are not in your favor. Pricing.... I was looking at the market for the past 6mo. Your not going to find a good plane for less than $230-240,000. If you do it’s priced below market and for a reason. I paid $260,000 for my plane with 2395TT, new engine from Continental with 285 hrs, original panel with ADSB and Connext Flightstream and new interior. I still had a list of items to take care of after my PPI. Nothing serious but the bill added up to $20,000 to get it “almost” perfect.... still have some work to go during the next annual and I should be caught up. TKS pumps both needed to be replaced. That’s $8,600 dollars for 2 new pumps no labor!!! I was lucky and found someone on eBay selling new pumps for $1,250 ea! What I’m saying is there will be a pricey list of things to get done after you make the purchase. Cheap initial purchase price means big payment fixing it up. I’ve also been debating the 310HP STC and you have to ask yourself how you want to fly the plane. SOP by the book is to set climb power at 500’ AGL to 24” 2500 RPM for the climb. So from the start of the takeoff roll to 500’ is all your going to get. If your on the east coast on high density altitude days and short runways it will benefit you. If you live in high terrain out west it’s a benefit. Everywhere else... not so much. Now keeping everything full forward until FL180 there’s a benefit on performance but will come at a price when the engine needs new cylinders in 1000hrs. It does nothing for speed in cruise since your at 2550 RPM or below. You only see the additional power above 2500 RPM. The paperwork and a new tach if required, modifying the governor, and modifying fuel pressure will coast you $8,000. For me it doesn’t make sense. Just had this conversation with my mechanic yesterday. This is my experience looking for a FIKI Ovation. 4 Quote
V1VRV2 Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 Just flight planned this flight PBG-ISM and it’s going to take 85 gallons @ 75% best economy. But look at the huge headwind. 37 KTS. Today this trip will require a fuel stop but the majority of days it wont. Certainly not on the way home. Quote
Cruiser Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 you know the tanks will hold 108 gallons. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 Remarking the existing tach with the new red line also works... If you like the original look of the O’s stock panel... Updates to older Long Bodies are coming on fast... The O1s had a handful of analog devices that are nearing the end of their useful life... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
V1VRV2 Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 58 minutes ago, Cruiser said: you know the tanks will hold 108 gallons. Not in an O with A/C and FIKI! Quote
StevenL757 Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Cruiser said: you know the tanks will hold 108 gallons. Actually, it's 106 total with 102 usable on some models. The later models (on or about 2005'ish and later) were 100 usable. Quote
StevenL757 Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 2 hours ago, V1VRV2 said: I’ve also been debating the 310HP STC and you have to ask yourself how you want to fly the plane. SOP by the book is to set climb power at 500’ AGL to 24” 2500 RPM for the climb. For the 310STC, per Bob Minnis, the STC original creator and owner and with whom I worked closely before, throughout, and after my upgrade projects, the best/proper procedure for optimal performance and wear on the engine is: Takeoff and climb to 1000' AGL - everything full forward Above 1000' AGL, reduce to 2550RPM If cruising ~7500' MSL or below, reduce to 23" MP for cruise, set 2550RPM, lean to LOP If above ~7500'MSL (where MP starts to decrease below 23" at full throttle), leave at full throttle, set 2550RPM, lean to LOP 1 Quote
Cruiser Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 29 minutes ago, StevenL757 said: Actually, it's 106 total with 102 usable on some models. The later models (on or about 2005'ish and later) were 100 usable. MOONEY AIRPLANE COMPANY, INC. 51 GALLON FUEL TANKS M20M, M20R, M20TN AFM SUPPLEMENT FUEL Minimum Fuel Grade (Color) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 100 LL (Blue) or 100 Octane (Green) Total Capacity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 108 U. S. Gal. (408.8 liters) Usable . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 102.0 U. S. Gal. (386.1 liters) 1 Quote
Scottknoll Posted December 12, 2020 Report Posted December 12, 2020 We are having the 310HP upgrade done as we speak. It was one of the first things we decided to do after purchase. We needed to climb at 120 and 700fpm to keep cylinder temps down. The MSC doing says it will be a whole new airplane. Big seat of your pants difference. What takeoff fuel flow does everyone see (both the 280 & 310HP drivers)? We were 23-24GPH with the stock IO550G (280HP). Quote
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