To VHF or not to VHF...

[Jakes Simmons]

     Need a little wisdom of the crowds. My Ranger’s panel is currently opened up getting a new gps/comm, txp, audio panel, and two AV30’s. My #2 nav/comm is a -214 with a very recent MX170C driving it. My avionics guy said he would swap out the 214 for a VAL 429 while the airplane is open for 500 labor. The labor would NOT include any splitters so if I did it, I would essentially have a standalone VHF NAV w/ILS and the MX170 would become purely a #2 Comm.

     I do not plan on adding any more boxes to the panel after this work save a Hail Mary pass in case the AeroCruze ever gets certified. Beyond the new Garmin 355, all tech updates will be with portable stuff. 
     And I am a CB. My question is going into the future, how really practical is VHF nav going to be? Should I save some AMU’s and ride out the -214 until it fails and stay 100% satellite based? Or is having a VHF back up worth the 2.5k? I still have seats and the possible a/p to go. Would any of you consider buying a satellite based only IFR plane? Appreciate the opinions...

[JimB]

I have been in this same boat. VHF nav is going to be around for some time. We even have a few small airports that broadcast their AWOS over the VOR/Nav freq so without a Nav, I can't get that weather (there are other options though). A few questions for you in which I had to ask myself

• Are you only going to fly VFR? Yes you can fly it IFR but I can't complete my IR training without the VHF NAV
• Will you want to sell the aircraft any time soon? In my opinion it may be a real issue for some potential buyers
• Are you comfortable only having GPS for navigation? I don't sit up at night worrying about GPS outages but if you are flying real IFR I think it is something to consider

I am working on my instrument rating now and had to install a NAV/COM. But if I was flying VFR only I don't know that I would since I plan to keep my aircraft a long time. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by JimB

[Davidv]

For what it’s worth, I just put in new radios as part of a panel upgrade and I went with 1 NAV/COMM and 1 COMM. This saved about $2k and I thought 1 NAV would be enough given all of the GPS approaches and the fact that they are decommissioning VORs.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Jakes Simmons said:

     Need a little wisdom of the crowds. My Ranger’s panel is currently opened up getting a new gps/comm, txp, audio panel, and two AV30’s. My #2 nav/comm is a -214 with a very recent MX170C driving it. My avionics guy said he would swap out the 214 for a VAL 429 while the airplane is open for 500 labor. The labor would NOT include any splitters so if I did it, I would essentially have a standalone VHF NAV w/ILS and the MX170 would become purely a #2 Comm.

     I do not plan on adding any more boxes to the panel after this work save a Hail Mary pass in case the AeroCruze ever gets certified. Beyond the new Garmin 355, all tech updates will be with portable stuff. 
     And I am a CB. My question is going into the future, how really practical is VHF nav going to be? Should I save some AMU’s and ride out the -214 until it fails and stay 100% satellite based? Or is having a VHF back up worth the 2.5k? I still have seats and the possible a/p to go. Would any of you consider buying a satellite based only IFR plane? Appreciate the opinions...

The VAL429 is not TSO equipment, and seems like an expensive solution for not delivering very much other than a lot of unnecessary installation labor, especially if you already have the MX170C installed.   

As mentioned already, VHF navigation is not going away and is a good backup for when GPS fails or is down or interfered.

KI-214s are available on the used market for not a lot of money if you're just worried about yours failing.   I have an IFR panel with an MX170C and a KI-214 (Maybe it's a -213, I'm not completely sure), and I'm not worried about the serviceability of those.   I do use it from time to time, too. 

I'd wait until the CDI actually became a problem and then deal with it then, either with just a replacement unit or an upgrade to something better that may be available.

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

I don’t feel two nav/comms is required nowadays, but I still definitely want one.  Having it separate from my gps/comm is even better.  So #1 gps/comm, #2nav/comm in my opinion is a worthwhile investment.  You will rarely use the vhf nav, but if you’re ifr and your gps dies, you’ll be real happy it’s there!

[carusoam]

+1 for the portable nav/com to support what ever choice you make...

A used radio may be better choice than a low cost new one...

Installation costs make changing radios a pain...

Consider a slide in replacement for whatever is coming out...

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

There are some places vhf is a good option to have too.  At my home airport, KSFF, there’s a vor and a gps approach to runway 4L. For runway 22R, which is the normal runway, there is only an ILS.  No gps approach exists.  Why? I have no idea, but when it was 3/4nm vis in thick smoke this summer, I was only able to get home because of the ILS.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ragsf15e

[carusoam]

GPS approaches have been a little bit slow rolling out...

If you have an VOR/ILS... it may have put the priority for a GPS approach to the bottom...

Best regards,

-a-

[glbtrottr]

Im an even cheaper CB than you, that I do my own installs. And I’d never go for the option presented to you with the Val.

1. I just did a search on Fleabay, and found several Ki-214’s for about 100 bucks. A straight swap would take at most a billable hour by an avionics shop, if that’s who does it upon failure.

2. If the MX170 and 214 are working, i don’t understand why any changes require to be made unless I misread. I get that you’re adding a 355.

While new avionics generally intend to draw less power, I’ve been in curious situations where newer avionics fail (greater power draw) and the older ones live a little longer (alternator /battery failure). The GPS was the first thing to go.

While I may be a CB, I’m also a belt and suspenders guy. I tend to keep a GDL 39 with a battery always on, and iPads powered by USB bricks being charged and powering the device...along with constantly on Garmin 696/796, or An Aera for the passenger to fiddle with anytime they want. That, and a portable 750L that includes NAV. LPV/gps approaches May be wonderful, but slow in rollout at Podunk, USA...and there’s never one when I need it last minute.


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[McMooney]

1.  Get rid of the ki-214, they are nigh impossible to fix and any used ones are likely to be bad.  If you must, there is one guy in Lafayette Indiana who can service them, somewhat.  If the installer can get you the Val and make it legal, i'd consider it.

VHF Nav is on life support at this point, I'd say do NOT depend on it in an emergency or atleast be very cautious.

you know that makes me think, can they PLEASE do something better than NOTAMS, i mean yes if i'm planning a flight  i can read thru the 1000 items to find notam'd navaids, but, what happens in an emergency?  do i stop the plane while i read up on the latest notam'd vortac, ils, dme ?

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 minutes ago, McMooney said:

VHF Nav is on life support at this point.....

The FAA plans to retain an operational VOR network for enroute navigation and for approaches at MON (minimum operational network) airports.  FAA VOR MON

The 589 VOR stations planned for retention under MON beyond 2030 are VOR Locations.  

[philiplane]

There's no way I would be without VHF navigation capability, anywhere, but especially in the southeast. There are plenty of days each year when the GPS signal is degraded or unavailable due to military or space launch activities.

Not to mention how fragile GPS signals are. There are plenty of USB and LED devices that can totally block the signal. Portable XM antennas that fail and broadcast signals that wipe out your GPS reception. Been there, done that, with several dozen customer's planes when their combination XM/GPS antennas failed. These were late model well equipped planes rendered nearly useless, other than the saving grace of still having VOR navigation capability.

And, when your sole GPS/Com develops a control knob or screen issue, or simply quits, what do you do?

[Jakes Simmons]

     Appreciate all the advice/opinions put out there, I wanted to make sure I had plenty of considerations covered. Ended up ordering the VAL from Chief. What finally allowed me to rationalize the purchase was its ability to accept external sources and I caught a look at a Grumman that had two recently installed, it looks better in person. My history also includes consistent misfortune whenever I had gone the used route on electronic gear. Now I just gotta work a little more OT.
    Hoping by end of December to be able to leave a PIREP on the two AV30C’s. Out of the box they seem to be well built little devices. The company’s engineer related there is room for a lot more capability if they ever have time to get caught up. Thanks again for all the input...

[Jakes Simmons]

P.S. on the flip side I will have a working KI214 as well as some other older but working gear coming up available in the next month or so...

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, McMooney said:

1.  Get rid of the ki-214, they are nigh impossible to fix and any used ones are likely to be bad.  If you must, there is one guy in Lafayette Indiana who can service them, somewhat.  If the installer can get you the Val and make it legal, i'd consider it.

VHF Nav is on life support at this point, I'd say do NOT depend on it in an emergency or atleast be very cautious.

you know that makes me think, can they PLEASE do something better than NOTAMS, i mean yes if i'm planning a flight  i can read thru the 1000 items to find notam'd navaids, but, what happens in an emergency?  do i stop the plane while i read up on the latest notam'd vortac, ils, dme ?

 

The ILS systems are not on life support.  VORs will also be maintained at a minimum level.

[McMooney]

43 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

The ILS systems are not on life support.  VORs will also be maintained at a minimum level.

shrug, it's to the point where around houston, I cannot depend on anything vor related being operational.  flew kdwh-knew yesterday 2 of the 3 vor's on my route were out.

last month, randomly decided to shoot an approach into klbx oops ils was out, and of course atc didn't mention it.

same, day shot the ils into kgls,  vor for missed approach was out.   yes, there are notams but in an emergency you'd be screwed

[Ragsf15e]

9 minutes ago, McMooney said:

shrug, it's to the point where around houston, I cannot depend on anything vor related being operational.  flew kdwh-knew yesterday 2 of the 3 vor's on my route were out.

last month, randomly decided to shoot an approach into klbx oops ils was out, and of course atc didn't mention it.

same, day shot the ils into kgls,  vor for missed approach was out.   yes, there are notams but in an emergency you'd be screwed

I guess my thought is this, notams will advise you of a specific outage at a specific place if you needed the ils or vor to get somewhere, but if you have a gps outage or your gps fails, you will need a backup system for an approach.  Maybe your destination doesn’t have a (working) ILS, but I can almost guarantee there’s one within range.  If you have an equipment failure or emergency while IMC, destination is no longer important, getting down safely is.