Panel adventure - what would you do?

[JamesMooney]

Alright MS.... if I gave you two budgets - $12-16k and $18-22k - what would you do with this panel?

MIssion: east coast 200-400 nm day/night VFR and soft IFR

Current panel (all in working cond):

NAV/COM: Narco MX12D (1990s style digital flip/flop)
GPS/COM: Garmin GNC 250 (VFR)
Dual CDIs (one w GS), standard stuff
Xpdr: analog KT76
ADF: King ADF
Audio panel: analog KMA 20
No engine monitor
No autopilot - may have wing leveler
ADS-B Out installed
Vacuum gauges
Panel updated to standard 6-pack layout

Bonus points if you have any recommendations for east coast avionics shops. Will travel.

....and go!

[Paul_Havelka]

That’s going to be a little tight. I upgraded a pa28 with gns430w, avidyne adsb transponder, avidyne audio panel and a single g5 hsi and that stuff ran me 15k and I did the install 

[JamesMooney]

3 minutes ago, Paul_Havelka said:

That’s going to be a little tight. I upgraded a pa28 with gns430w, avidyne adsb transponder, avidyne audio panel and a single g5 hsi and that stuff ran me 15k and I did the install 

Fair. In this case, maybe I don't need to touch the xpdr? It has an analog KT76; ADSB out; and I have Stratus for ADS-B In on iPad. Taking the ADSB Xpdr out of the equation should save ~$2-3k in hardware alone?

Edited September 25, 2020 by FlyingCanuck

[mike_elliott]

26 minutes ago, FlyingCanuck said:

Alright MS.... if I gave you two budgets - $12-16k and $18-22k - what would you do with this panel?

MIssion: east coast 200-400 nm day/night VFR and soft IFR

Current panel (all in working cond):

NAV/COM: Narco MX12D (1990s style digital flip/flop)
GPS/COM: Garmin GNC 250 (VFR)
Dual CDIs (one w GS), standard stuff
Xpdr: analog KT76
ADF: King ADF
Audio panel: analog KMA 20
No engine monitor
No autopilot - may have wing leveler
ADS-B Out installed
Vacuum gauges
Panel updated to standard 6-pack layout

Bonus points if you have any recommendations for east coast avionics shops. Will travel.

....and go!

I would add the 2 budgets together then proceed

[smwash02]

Autopilot and fuel flow is what I'd add. A tablet with ADSB in can handle the rest of your NAV needs and spatial orientation/6 pack backup until you're ready for more regular IFR then I'd get a 650Xi.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Paul_Havelka said:

That’s going to be a little tight. I upgraded a pa28 with gns430w, avidyne adsb transponder, avidyne audio panel and a single g5 hsi and that stuff ran me 15k and I did the install 

I agree, that number is very tight.

Exercises that an owner shouldn't do, add up everything that you have bought over the course of a year... I didn't realize I had spent that much. I just finished overhauling my panel, I spent about a year buying the pieces up when things had rebates and I had the extra funds. Here's what I did, but it would put the OP over budget. These are parts only, I did all the labor. It brought my panel into this century and now I'm starting my IFR.

• Dual G'5s $5255
• GNC355   $6295
• PMA450B $2195
• Harness    $585 (You have to buy the harness pre-built for the PMA45B but that is some of the best money you can spend)
• EDM 900  $4475

That puts the total at $18,805 and figure another $500-1000 in circuit breakers, wire, connectors, etc... Plus a lot of time if you are doing the install.

If he wants to replace the transponder he could do the GTX335 which is another $3200 (apprx).

The dual G5's will likely allow him to remove the vacuum system. After watching my vacuum go to zero and then the slow loss of the AI/DG (while in VFR conditions) I wouldn't want to fly IFR on vacuum. Yes, I know people have done it and continue to do it on vacuum instruments successfully, I just don't personally want to do it.

[AerostarDriver]

24 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I agree, that number is very tight.

Exercises that an owner shouldn't do, add up everything that you have bought over the course of a year... I didn't realize I had spent that much. I just finished overhauling my panel, I spent about a year buying the pieces up when things had rebates and I had the extra funds. Here's what I did, but it would put the OP over budget. These are parts only, I did all the labor. It brought my panel into this century and now I'm starting my IFR.

• Dual G'5s $5255
• GNC355   $6295
• PMA450B $2195
• Harness    $585 (You have to buy the harness pre-built for the PMA45B but that is some of the best money you can spend)
• EDM 900  $4475

That puts the total at $18,805 and figure another $500-1000 in circuit breakers, wire, connectors, etc... Plus a lot of time if you are doing the install.

If he wants to replace the transponder he could do the GTX335 which is another $3200 (apprx).

The dual G5's will likely allow him to remove the vacuum system. After watching my vacuum go to zero and then the slow loss of the AI/DG (while in VFR conditions) I wouldn't want to fly IFR on vacuum. Yes, I know people have done it and continue to do it on vacuum instruments successfully, I just don't personally want to do it.

I don't think you can get a GNC355 without a shop installing it but you could do a GPS 175 and an used SL40 for about the same price. An option to explore would be to look at GDL 88 compatibility with the GPS 175/GNC355 to get ADS-B in and out.

Edited September 25, 2020 by AerostarDriver

[Skates97]

7 minutes ago, AerostarDriver said:

I don't think you can get a GNC355 without a shop installing it but you could do a GPS 175 and an used SL40 for about the same price. An option to explorer would be to look at GDL 88 compatibility with the GPS 175/GNC355 to get ADS-B in and out.

The GNC355 must be shipped to a shop (does not have to be a Garmin installer), it can't be shipped to you. I had it shipped to my AP/IA and then I did the install with his oversight.

[AerostarDriver]

13 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

The GNC355 must be shipped to a shop (does not have to be a Garmin installer), it can't be shipped to you. I had it shipped to my AP/IA and then I did the install with his oversight.

I must be doing something wrong because I cannot get Garmin to send my shop the install manual for the GI-275 CDI to check if it is compatible with my setup unless we buy a GI-275...
Regardless I would still look in to if the GNC355 will support the GDL 88 as they are about 900-1200 bucks on ebay.

The GNC355 and GPS 175 will support the GDL 88 for ADS-B and out. That may be a much cheaper path to go then a GTX 335 or 345 with the disadvantaging being you don't get Mode S Traffic unless you have a GTX330ES.

Edited September 25, 2020 by AerostarDriver

[Skates97]

9 minutes ago, AerostarDriver said:

I must be doing something wrong because I cannot get Garmin to send my shop the install manual for the GI-275 CDI to check if it is compatible with my setup unless we buy a GI-275...
Regardless I would still look in to if the GNC355 will support the GDL 88 as they are about 900-1200 bucks on ebay.

The GI-275 may be a different story and the reason why you can't get that out of them.

A couple lines from the GNC355 install manual relating to the GDL-88

2.1.1 Equipment Interfaced to the GNC 355( )

• The GNC 355( ) is not approved for displaying correlated traffic and must not be connected to a GDL 88 or GTX 345 interfacing to a TCAS

3.4.4 ADS-B Receivers

• The GNC 355( ) is approved to receive ADS-B In data from a GDL 88 or GTX 345.

The install manual also provides the schematic for connecting the GDL-88 to the GNC355.

[AerostarDriver]

7 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

The GI-275 may be a different story and the reason why you can't get that out of them.

A couple lines from the GNC355 install manual relating to the GDL-88

2.1.1 Equipment Interfaced to the GNC 355( )

• The GNC 355( ) is not approved for displaying correlated traffic and must not be connected to a GDL 88 or GTX 345 interfacing to a TCAS

3.4.4 ADS-B Receivers

• The GNC 355( ) is approved to receive ADS-B In data from a GDL 88 or GTX 345.

The install manual also provides the schematic for connecting the GDL-88 to the GNC355.

Just so I am reading that correctly, the GDL 88 can't display ADS-B Traffic on the GNC 355 but can display FIS-B Data?

[Skates97]

4 minutes ago, AerostarDriver said:

Just so I am reading that correctly, the GDL 88 can't display ADS-B Traffic on the GNC 355 but can display FIS-B Data?

I "think" that is what it is saying, but it is going to take someone besides myself to interpret the manual language. I just have ADS-B In going to a tablet from a stratux so didn't dig into the ADS-B In capabilities of the GNC355.

[Ragsf15e]

As others said, that’s tight.  In order (sort of) I’d WANT:

1. Autopilot (but wait on this to see if TT/BK approval comes through and is cheaper than GFC500).

2. Engine monitor 

3. G5s (remove vacuum)

4. Used Ifd440, GNS430W, or GPS175 or 355.

2 and 3 could be swapped possibly.

All of that installed is double the budget.  As I said, I’d wait for TT (while building the budget back up).  Right now I’d strongly consider adding a JPI900 or CGR-30P and dual g5s (#2 and #3).  That is within your current budget.  and adds some safety (no vacuum, plus engine health).  The G5s would need to use their internal antenna and you’ll need to check compatibility with your current gps.  Then in a year or two when the checkbook recovered, I’d do the used ifr gps and autopilot.

[ArtVandelay]

Just so I am reading that correctly, the GDL 88 can't display ADS-B Traffic on the GNC 355 but can display FIS-B Data?

I thought FISB=ADSB?
Some stuff doesn’t interface with the GDL88, for example the G3X will not talk to the 88, so no traffic or wx unless you buy the other box whose model escapes me.

[Niko182]

PMA450B
GNC355
GNC255
Dual G5's
 

I think that should be able to be done for 22k.

[steingar]

Sell it and buy something with the boxes already installed.

[gsxrpilot]

37 minutes ago, steingar said:

Sell it and buy something with the boxes already installed.

This. 

Sell whatever this is... add the $22k budget to the proceeds, and get something that at least has an autopilot. If you start with an airplane that has an autopilot, you can build from there. But without that, you need a lot more budget.

[StevenL757]

4 hours ago, FlyingCanuck said:

Alright MS.... if I gave you two budgets - $12-16k and $18-22k - what would you do with this panel?

MIssion: east coast 200-400 nm day/night VFR and soft IFR

Current panel (all in working cond):

NAV/COM: Narco MX12D (1990s style digital flip/flop)
GPS/COM: Garmin GNC 250 (VFR)
Dual CDIs (one w GS), standard stuff
Xpdr: analog KT76
ADF: King ADF
Audio panel: analog KMA 20
No engine monitor
No autopilot - may have wing leveler
ADS-B Out installed
Vacuum gauges
Panel updated to standard 6-pack layout

Bonus points if you have any recommendations for east coast avionics shops. Will travel

First of all, there is no such thing as “soft IFR”...it’s either VFR or IFR.  The instruments don’t care one way or another.

Second, I’d invest in two things...a modern panel-mounted IFR-approved GPS; which, given even your highest budget, you may need to find pre-owned.  Then find an engine monitor.  Your engine will thank you.

Steve

[LevelWing]

3 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

First of all, there is no such thing as “soft IFR”...it’s either VFR or IFR.  The instruments don’t care one way or another.

Second, I’d invest in two things...a modern panel-mounted IFR-approved GPS; which, given even your highest budget, you may need to find pre-owned.  Then find an engine monitor.  Your engine will thank you.

Steve

A Garmin GPS 175 can be purchased for around $4300. If the goal is an IFR certified GPS, this is one way to accomplish that and won't be at the high end of his budget.

[carusoam]

For used avionics...

MS has a resource for that.... see what @Alan Fox has on the shelf...

Best regards,

-a-

[JamesMooney]

13 hours ago, carusoam said:

For used avionics...

MS has a resource for that.... see what @Alan Fox has on the shelf...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks - I've reached out to him now.

[JamesMooney]

17 hours ago, LevelWing said:

A Garmin GPS 175 can be purchased for around $4300. If the goal is an IFR certified GPS, this is one way to accomplish that and won't be at the high end of his budget.

That's exactly what I had in mind. Contrary to the messages above, I've had some reasonable quotes... a GPS175 can be installed for $6-8k. Dual G5s can be installed for $8k. That could leave me with $4-6k in my scenario budget, maybe for a JPI700/730/800/830 installed. That means I walk away with an IFR WAAS, connected to glass PFDs, and an engine monitor. With the existing Narco digital NAV/COM and analog transponder, that should be a fine plane for my 200-400nm east coast missions. Unless anyone thinks I've missed something here

Interesting that no one mentioned Aspen, Avidyne or Dynon so far.... a lot of Garmin fans?  

[JamesMooney]

20 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

First of all, there is no such thing as “soft IFR”...it’s either VFR or IFR.  The instruments don’t care one way or another.

Second, I’d invest in two things...a modern panel-mounted IFR-approved GPS; which, given even your highest budget, you may need to find pre-owned.  Then find an engine monitor.  Your engine will thank you.

Steve

Thanks Steve. What I meant by 'soft' IFR was typically flying 'occasional' IFR en route and approaches typically not requiring down to minimums. I think there's a difference between approaches in 2.5-3 sm / 800-1500' cig, versus flying to ILS minimums every time. Of course, the weather always changes after departure, so its fair to always assume you're going to minimums. But I just mean I'm not seeking out flights every time that will put me in minimums. And as such, I'm not building an avionics stack meant for constant IFR down to the bottom of the glideslope (If I was doing that kind of regular low IFR flying, I would go with an autopilot-equipped bird, no question.)

Great point on the engine monitor.

The WAAS GPS doesn't have to blow my budget. A GPS175 may be perfect for my mission, and can be had for $4k, or $6-7k installed. That's only 1/3 my budget. The GTN750 will wait for another airplane in 5-10 years (by then who knows if it will be the go-to model anyway).

Thanks again, appreciate the perspectives!

[carusoam]

FC,

See if you can update your avatar data area...

Include what plane you are flying and where you are at...
 

Toss in an iconic pic of you and your plane...

This helps MSers recognize you and better answer your questions...

Best regards,

-a-

[Davidv]

GNX375 for NAV/ADS-B - $9K installed

GTR225 Comm - $3.5K installed

PMA450b - $3.5K installed

2 G5s - $8K installed?

This gives you everything you need for ADS-B, great navigator, and full approach capability.