FAA Over Reach?

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When I used to be a competitive speed skater we used to do training in the hills on the back side of South Mountain. A bunch of us were sprinting up this one hill when Randy sat down and said he felt horrible. He limped back to the parking lot and went to the hospital. He had a heart attack and ended up in the hospital for a few weeks. He hasn't skated sense. Luckily, he is fine. He was in terrific shape. He was one of the top skaters in the country in his age group (65 and older) He could beat most 20 somethings...

I'm the leftmost in the back row. Randy is just below me with the jean shorts.

Nice - my wife and I met in an ice speed skating club.  She was good.  I was lousy!  I was a bike racer who figured I could learn how... I sort of did.  I did some 5 wheeler races too on road.  My claim to fame once was when I was winning a race in Denver - I was fit from bike racing but still shaky sometimes on skates - in front of a big crowd and leading like 75 guys and 10 yards to go I stood up to put my arms in the air like you do in a bike race - I got an immediate high speed wobble and boom fell flat on my face like 12 inches in front of the line.  Woosh Woosh Woosh - like half a dozen guys passed me before I managed to crawl across the line on my hands and feet which was the fastest way rather than get up since I was so close.

To be highly competitive at endurance sports takes will power and fitness - will power to dig deep.  I wonder if digging too deep is a good idea after a certain age.  I am just not sure when that age is.  I don't dig as deep as I used to.  

[N201MKTurbo]

14 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Dang, there are a lot of muscles in that shot!

Especially in the front row...

I was between wives at the time. Skating was good to me...

I met my current wife while skating.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Especially in the front row...

I was between wives at the time. Skating was good to me...

I met my current wife while skating.

Hah - me too - I met my wife skating too! (only one - 26 years and counting!)  Like I said - she was a good skater and I was a lousy skater   - but something very good came of it!

[bradp]

On 7/30/2020 at 2:10 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

Well, he mis-spoke about the first part. From my experience, he was right about the second part.

Guy I rent a hangar from has chronic issues from his covid; probably going back to the hospital now.   

had another critically ill kid with heart failure from it last week 

had another previously healthy kid we had to crash onto a heart pump because of it 

suicide attempt young girl can’t go to inpatient psychiatry hospital because she had it recently and is still testing positive 

our hospital is still full and a hurricane will likely impact the area early next week

its a serious public health problem in every respect.    

 
who was it on the board who admitted to paying off a waiter to remove his mask? 

[hammdo]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

about a half to two-thirds genetic, with the remainder related to the environment and lifestyle.  So while good diet, exercise and avoiding exposure to environmental risk factors is good practice and should be done, it's not automatically preventative for any one individual.  Not a broadly scientific statement, obviously, but I think it's pretty close for a lot of things.

 

My heart failure was genetics - with 20% EF when it happened. I'm nowhere near the level those folks are (health wise) but I was doing 5 to 10 mile speed walks a day before the failure started to creep up on me. I can sympathize..

No blockage, pressure great, took them 3 days before the cardiac mri showed the EF ratio. 

Those folks look like the perfect picture of health too... 

-Don 

 

[aviatoreb]

16 minutes ago, hammdo said:

My heart failure was genetics - with 20% EF when it happened. I'm nowhere near the level those folks are (health wise) but I was doing 5 to 10 mile speed walks a day before the failure started to creep up on me. I can sympathize..

No blockage, pressure great, took them 3 days before the cardiac mri showed the EF ratio. 

Those folks look like the perfect picture of health too... 

-Don 

 

Thanks for your story Don.  Are you still active?

I was always impressed that Eddy Merckx has a bad heart.  If Eddy Merckx can develop a bad ticker, anyone can.  For those that don't know, Merckx is widely considered the greatest cyclist that ever lived - dating 1960's-1970s - won the tour 5 times and so much more.  He is 75 now.  And still ticking...

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/did-merckx-ride-with-potentially-lethal-heart-problem/

[GeeBee]

I received a reply from AOPA. Here is what they said,

"This is the first that we've heard of this. I did confirm with OKC that this order was issued out by FAA in Washington D.C. We will definitely be following up on this. If possible, could you please email or fax me a copy of the letter from your AME?"

 

It seems to be a big mystery of who, what, when and how this was formulated. Which makes me suspicious. 

 

 

[hammdo]

43 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Thanks for your story Don.  Are you still active?

I was always impressed that Eddy Merckx has a bad heart.  If Eddy Merckx can develop a bad ticker, anyone can.  For those that don't know, Merckx is widely considered the greatest cyclist that ever lived - dating 1960's-1970s - won the tour 5 times and so much more.  He is 75 now.  And still ticking...

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/did-merckx-ride-with-potentially-lethal-heart-problem/

Thanks for asking!

I’m back up to almost 5 miles and have my 3 class medical too. Entresto is a miracle drug. With hard work I’m near 50% EF now - took almost a year and a half but, I’m able to do more. Not there yet for the 10 milers but I’m able to do close to 5’s more often (but not as fast as I used to ;o)

Cardiac rehab was a huge help...

other ‘gene’ pool hits I’m still overcoming but at least I’m active again and can fly solo...

I’ve always admired folks who fought back and would not let life’s  ‘challenges‘ stop them... the ‘true’ human spirit if you will — kick, scream, and fight those challenges until there is nothing left ;o)
 

-Don

 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

Guy I rent a hangar from has chronic issues from his covid; probably going back to the hospital now.   

had another critically ill kid with heart failure from it last week 

had another previously healthy kid we had to crash onto a heart pump because of it 

suicide attempt young girl can’t go to inpatient psychiatry hospital because she had it recently and is still testing positive 

our hospital is still full and a hurricane will likely impact the area early next week

its a serious public health problem in every respect.    

 
who was it on the board who admitted to paying off a waiter to remove his mask? 

If you work in an auto repair shop, all cars are broken. If you work in a heart hospital, everybody has a bad heart. If you work in a COVID hospital, you will see a lot of COVID problems.

I don't work in a hospital and all I see is a lot of healthy people who don't know any sick people. Except what they see on the news...

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Thanks for asking!

I’m back up to almost 5 miles and have my 3 class medical too. Entresto is a miracle drug. With hard work I’m near 50% EF now - took almost a year and a half but, I’m able to do more. Not there yet for the 10 milers but I’m able to do close to 5’s more often (but not as fast as I used to ;o)

Cardiac rehab was a huge help...

other ‘gene’ pool hits I’m still overcoming but at least I’m active again and can fly solo...

I’ve always admired folks who fought back and would not let life’s  ‘challenges‘ stop them... the ‘true’ human spirit if you will — kick, scream, and fight those challenges until there is nothing left ;o)
 

-Don

 

That's great to hear!

I love to convince myself the optimistic interpretation of these things.  I figure we could say that you had a very uncomfortable big scare but maybe because of it and you dodged the bullet now you may have all the resources to live an extended life that maybe if you had not had the big scare something worse and more fatal would have happened before long.  So maybe its a blessing in disguise?  Live long and prosper!

[jaylw314]

27 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I received a reply from AOPA. Here is what they said,

"This is the first that we've heard of this. I did confirm with OKC that this order was issued out by FAA in Washington D.C. We will definitely be following up on this. If possible, could you please email or fax me a copy of the letter from your AME?"

 

It seems to be a big mystery of who, what, when and how this was formulated. Which makes me suspicious. 

 

 

It does kind of smell of a renegade individual somewhere, but that's be a tough thing to nail down from where...

[bradp]

59 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If you work in an auto repair shop, all cars are broken. If you work in a heart hospital, everybody has a bad heart. If you work in a COVID hospital, you will see a lot of COVID problems.

I don't work in a hospital and all I see is a lot of healthy people who don't know any sick people. Except what they see on the news...

I like the repair shop analogy Rich.
 

Just modify it slightly. You have little steam of oil leaking.  You don’t even notice it.  In fact It seals itself off such that you don’t have any issues with your car.  Some people notice and go to the shop, some people don’t. 
 

However the car behind you and maybe a few others following your path lose traction and go careening off the road and crash.  The old guy with bad maintenance and old tires - man forget about it.  Maybe you knew about the slippery fluid leak and didn’t think much of it, or maybe you had no idea and go merrily about your way.  

I don’t think of myself as working in a Covid hospital - just a regular old regional medical center.  It’s the same across the US - most hospitals big and small, urban and rural, are affected.  

It’s amazing we have to debate the seriousness of taking on a minimal personal inconvenience to protect other American’s health and well being in this day and age.  I consider mask wearing out and about the most patriotic thing I can do save showing up for work.  
 

Back to the OP topic - I’d ignore it unless it came up somehow on my next medical.  

[hammdo]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

That's great to hear!

I love to convince myself the optimistic interpretation of these things.  I figure we could say that you had a very uncomfortable big scare but maybe because of it and you dodged the bullet now you may have all the resources to live an extended life that maybe if you had not had the big scare something worse and more fatal would have happened before long.  So maybe its a blessing in disguise?  Live long and prosper!

It was the big scare, I literally could not breath. It came to a head on a business trip to Irvine. When I got back saw the Dr. - said watch out for pulmonary embolism -any kind of breathtaking or weakness go straight to ER. 2 weeks later boom, woke up - was unable to walk or breath - wife rushed me to ER.  The ER Dr. said if I waited much longer, I would have been gone in 6 months to a year.

So yeah, I’m takin’ it seriously for sure now.  Everyday is a gift. ;o)

That made me get off my butt to get current again and get my medical — wasted too many years running my business and working all the time...

-Don

[ragedracer1977]

Stuff like this is why I decided I won't get a covid test.  I'll either get it and survive at home.  Or I'll be so close to death I'll have to call for an ambulance ride.  

 

 

[bradp]

57 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Stuff like this is why I decided I won't get a covid test.  I'll either get it and survive at home.  Or I'll be so close to death I'll have to call for an ambulance ride.  

 

 

You’d probably want the roids and antivirals (it they become widely available) sometime before an ambulance ride if it came to that.  

[ragedracer1977]

7 minutes ago, bradp said:

You’d probably want the roids and antivirals (it they become widely available) sometime before an ambulance ride if it came to that.  

If I was that bad off, yes.  But for a "cold" like most people seem to have? I don't want to be tested.  

I have suspicion I've had it already anyway.  Had all the symptoms (my wife too) early in the year a week after visiting what turned out to be a very hot spot.  

And then I was exposed to one known case for several hours, and we were in very close proximity, but nothing.  

 

[bradp]

We had a kid in the hospital with a really really weird  pneumonia after traveling through Dubai in Jan before much was known about this.  Then a bunch of RTs And RNs got sick.  A bunch of people I work with think they’ve had it.  Then again there are all the normal viruses floating around - my wife got tested once because she came down with a fever sore throat after a cluster of 12 technicians she works about 2 feet from (side by side) got covid.  Nope - negative. Some other virus.   

[aviatoreb]

23 minutes ago, bradp said:

We had a kid in the hospital with a really really weird  pneumonia after traveling through Dubai in Jan before much was known about this.  Then a bunch of RTs And RNs got sick.  A bunch of people I work with think they’ve had it.  Then again there are all the normal viruses floating around - my wife got tested once because she came down with a fever sore throat after a cluster of 12 technicians she works about 2 feet from (side by side) got covid.  Nope - negative. Some other virus.   

False negative?

the guy down the streets son got quite sick (in Maine) and showed all the symptoms but tested negative twice the positive a third time test.

[GeeBee]

4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

It does kind of smell of a renegade individual somewhere, but that's be a tough thing to nail down from where...

Well the letter has to be signed by someone, and we need to see it and know who it was that issued it.

 

[bradp]

Definitely possible false negative.  More needs to be learned about duration and effectiveness of antibody responses.
 

Timing of the swab counts- the positivity peaks just before or at the onset of symptoms and can decline sharply afterward.  Conversely, people can be PCR positive but not have virus that can be “passaged” through cells - the inference is that the virus isn’t competent to replicate at that point and the person is no longer considered to be infectious (for people with normal immune systems and aren’t/weren’t critically ill, after 10days since symptoms onset there’s about 12% of folks with competent virus and by 15 days that drops to 5%).  
 

Testing platform characteristics are also variable. We have one of the better performing test platforms gets down to about 150 copies / mL.  The poorer performing platforms will miss people at the beginning (matters) and end (maybe doesn’t matter as much), of their illness course.  The testing platform that lab Corp and quest are using detects about 10x less virus than the one we’re using. Contamination of reagents has been an issue with many of the failed swabs (bad reagents = false positive).  Wrong swabs / environmental issues = false negative (sample degradation and PCR inhibitors) The qc for clinical labs is a pretty high standard.  Same standard for other PCR based testing. Negative controls are crucial.    There’s a lot of PCR based testing in micro labs these days. 
 

Really interesting data just coming out yesterday and today about copy threshold detection limits.  The idea is since PCR* is a doubling event 2^x, and the machine / reagent combo has a threshold to be able to discriminate signal from noise, x is the lowest cycle number at which you can detect a signal.  It’s a substitute for viral copies and can be plotted against a standard curve of a known quantity of viral RNA to figure out the concentration of starting material.  Lower Ct, more virus.  Anyway, when they delete the super sick kids and delete the asymptomatic adults (to try to even out outlier effect - it’s the opposite of fudging the Numbers - it’s making statistical significance more difficult to achieve - kids <5 have between 10-100x the amount of detectable virus compared to older kids or adults.  Big implications for school openings.  It doesn’t mean that the kids are necessarily 100x more infectious (less aerosol generation with cough but more snotty nose and inability to control behaviors such as masking).  However also in the news is a large cluster at a summer camp.  This pretty much means that our local school district leaders are correct in holding off opening as much as that sucks for my daughter and us as a family.   
 

*PCR is polymerase chain reaction.  Probably the most impactful biological procedure in human history next to Pasteur/Flemming/Jenner/Salk  Developed by a brilliant stoner surfer who won the Nobel prize (Mullis is from Bob Belville’s town in NC). 

[N201MKTurbo]

37 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

False negative?

the guy down the streets son got quite sick (in Maine) and showed all the symptoms but tested negative twice the positive a third time test.

The SARS CoV2 rRT PCR is performed on a Roche Prime 96 PCR tester. 

This instrument has 94 vials with patient samples and positive and negative control vials.

The test is very sensitive. It can detect like 25 DNA/ml. It requires extreme care to not cross contaminate the patient samples. Do you think with the volume of tests being performed that extreme care is being exercised? 

This will never give false negatives, but has a high likelihood of false positives.

FWIW, I spent 20 years as a principal engineer at Roche designing lab instruments. Not PCR testers, but instruments with a lot of the same stuff.

[aviatoreb]

10 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Stuff like this is why I decided I won't get a covid test.  I'll either get it and survive at home.  Or I'll be so close to death I'll have to call for an ambulance ride.  

 

 

...yeah - only testing isn't just for the person being tested.  Not at all.  It's for those around the person and so for the contact tracing.  Its not just about treating an individual.  It for managing and diminishing a public health crisis.  This misunderstanding is why we had >1300 deaths today and Germany had 4.

[aviatoreb]

22 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The SARS CoV2 rRV PCR is performed on a Roche Prime 96 PCR tester. 

This instrument has 94 vials with patient samples and positive and negative control vials.

The test is very sensitive. It can detect like 25 DNA/ml. It requires extreme care to not cross contaminate the patient samples. Do you think with the volume of tests being performed that extreme care is being exercised? 

This will never give false negatives, but has a high likelihood of false positives.

FWIW, I spent 20 years as a principal engineer at Roche designing lab instruments. Not PCR testers, but instruments with a lot of the same stuff.

There is no such thing as zero false negative.  In anything, in any science.  But for sure, there are very low false negative rates.

And even with an excellent test, the errors of the humans in the loop creep into the processing false negative rate.

Just being a bugger on that.

But in case of the neighbor - he said the story just as I said it - and it was in March and I remember the whole testing system was very discombobulated so I tend to believe it.  I don't vouch for what nature of tests good bad or ugly was being used then.  Also in March, my wife's sister in St Louis seemed to have it - all the classic illness systems in a classic sick but not so sick to need to spend time in the hospital case.  She got it about one week after visiting NY City around March 6 and a plane ride home.  She tested negative - in 3rd week of March when there were so few tests available that they were only testing people who had been to the true hot spots, NYC then, and were showing classic symptoms.  She was sick for like 3 weeks and seemed to be dragging for many weeks after.  She tested negative and Never retested.  I am very doubtful she didn't have it.

Edited August 1, 2020 by aviatoreb

[amillet]

One of my sons, his wife and daughter tested positive, luckily mild symptoms.  My grandson,s swimming coach in AZ recently died from Covid. A client told me this past week that her younger sister just died from Covid. It seems to be getting closer.  A couple of months ago I knew of very few who had contracted the disease 

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

There is no such thing as zero false negative.  In anything, in any science.  But for sure, there are very low false negative rates.

And even with an excellent test, the errors of the humans in the loop creep into the processing false negative rate.

Just being a bugger on that.

But in case of the neighbor - he said the story just as I said it - and it was in March and I remember the whole testing system was very discombobulated so I tend to believe it.  I don't vouch for what nature of tests good bad or ugly was being used then.  Also in March, my wife's sister in St Louis seemed to have it - all the classic illness systems in a classic sick but not so sick to need to spend time in the hospital case.  She got it about one week after visiting NY City around March 6 and a plane ride home.  She tested negative - in 3rd week of March when there were so few tests available that they were only testing people who had been to the true hot spots, NYC then, and were showing classic symptoms.  She was sick for like 3 weeks and seemed to be dragging for many weeks after.  She tested negative and Never retested.  I am very doubtful she didn't have it.

If I still worked there I could root around on the network and see if I could find the FMEA on the thing. I’m sure they identified ways for a false negative. But if a technician just accidentally touches the liquid from a positive vial, they could contaminate hundreds of vials.