New started for 201

[201er]

I burnt out my Skytec 149NL starter. I gotta decide by tomorrow if I replace it with the same thing or something else (possibly B&C BC315-100-2). I welcome all suggestions and feedback. I'm still a mooney newb and lousy at starting it so I need something that will live with my handicap. Suggestions?

[201er]

Ok, never mind. I found out that no other starter will fit the Mooney anyway so I ordered the same one again. I'd delete this topic if I could find how.

[rbridges]

Quote: 201er

Ok, never mind. I found out that no other starter will fit the Mooney anyway so I ordered the same one again. I'd delete this topic if I could find how.

[FlyDave]

Regardless of the starter you buy, I'd suggest getting together with a good mechanic and finding out a couple of things:

1. 
   
2. Correct cold, hot and flooded start procedures for your engine
   
3. If the correct starting procedures are not working for you then have him diagnose why
   

You're not only killing your starter, you're killing your battery and putting undue stress on everything else.

If you want my starting procedures let me know and I'll post them.

[201er]

Rbridges, it's a space restriction. Mooney is like that. FlyDave, wouldn't hurt to hear your perspective. From the manual and my discussion with mech, I am starting it right. He admits its a tough engine to start.

Tell me, how much cranking does it take to get a start on a flooded IO360? Not enough to burn out the starter I hope.

[jetdriven]

I think anything over 10-20 seconds of cranking you are taking some life out of the starter, at least on the old style factory starter. IO-360 hot start takes at least that long, so I suppose the only solution is a good fresh battery and Skytec starter.

[PTK]

Cranking even for 10 seconds is waaaaaaaaay too long  imho.  You are killing it!  Starters and batteries are expensive!  The worst one, in my humble experience, has been a hot start and she fires up in a couple seconds.  I would review starting techniques.

Allow the starter about a minute to cool down between tries if having trouble.

Also you might want to invest in a battery minder to keep the battery in tip top shape. I keep mine plugged in all the time in the hangar year round. 

 

[FlyDave]

From my checklists (with things specific to my airplane removed):

STARTING ENGINE - COLD - My airplane starts in 2-3 blades when done right
1.    Mixture - FULL RICH
2.    Prop - FULL FORWARD
3.    Throttle - FULL FORWARD
4.    Master Switch – ON
6.    Boost Pump - 3-5 Sec (3 on warm day, 5+ on COLD day)
7.    Throttle - CRACK to IDLE
8.    Propeller Area - CLEAR
9.    Start Engine
10.    Throttle - 900 RPM
13.    Mixture - LEAN FOR TAXI

STARTING ENGINE - HOT - My airplane starts in 8-10 blades when done right
1.    Mixture - FULL RICH
2.    Prop - FULL FORWARD
3.    Throttle - FULL FORWARD
4.    Master Switch – ON
5.    Boost Pump - 1 Sec
7.    Mixture - FULL LEAN
8.    Throttle - CRACK to IDLE
9.    Propeller Area - CLEAR
10.    Start Engine
11.    Mixture - RICHEN QUICKLY WHEN FIRING TO APPROPRIATE SETTING
 
 
STARTING ENGINE - FLOODED - My airplane starts in 8-10 blades when done right
1.    Mixture - FULL LEAN
2.    Prop - FULL FORWARD
3.    Throttle - FULL
4.    Master Switch – ON
6.    Propeller Area - CLEAR
7.    Start Engine
8.    Throttle - QUICKLY TO 900 RPM
9.    Mixture - RICHEN QUICKLY

[PTK]

I don't think there is really a need to have throttle full forward as a rule. Why not leave throttle at idle (500-700 RPM) from the previous shut down.  This will prevent that initial surge in RPM at start up which should be avoided, especially on a cold start. Also this may be a nice way to avoid dealing with a flooded engine by preventing inadvertently flooding the engine while trying to start it! 

[rbridges]

I don't get it.  I've never flown a fuel injected plane, but I remember going from carbureted cars to fuel injected cars.  Starting was simplified b/c you didn't have to mess with a choke anymore.  How often do you hear fuel injected cars struggling to start?

[74657]

Quote: rbridges

I don't get it.  I've never flown a fuel injected plane, but I remember going from carbureted cars to fuel injected cars.  Starting was simplified b/c you didn't have to mess with a choke anymore.  How often do you hear fuel injected cars struggling to start?

[PTK]

Our aircooled fuel injected engines are engineering marvels! They are lightweight and bulletproof.  Our Lycomiongs are rated for continuous operation at WOT for 2000 hours ! How long will an overhead cam automobile engine last at WOT?

[Txbyker]

201er,

I just had my starter replaced at annual last month.  Maxwell installed an original type Presto Lite MZ4222.  He said that is the best one out there in regards to life.

Mine was turning very slowly and it often took about 8 blades or so to kick.  Hot starts were slow too.  It almost seemed like a bad battery or low voltage.  I replaced the battery and it did not make much difference.  

At annual, I was told the case was loose and the shaft was about to dig through it and I proably only had a few starts left.  Now it fires up right away, cold and hot.

 

Russ

[rbridges]

Quote: allsmiles

Our aircooled fuel injected engines are engineering marvels! They are lightweight and bulletproof.  Our Lycomiongs are rated for continuous operation at WOT for 2000 hours ! How long will an overhead cam automobile engine last at WOT?

[Hank]

And the low compression, too, even on our "high compression" aircraft engines. In a car, 8.7:1 is considered "low compression."

My 4-cylinder automobile runs ~2500 RPM with the cruise set on the interstate, a condition that it should maintain for a long, long time. So far, driving conditions are much more mixed than what my airplane sees, and it's gone 192,400+ miles and still going strong. That's where a good chunk of my avgas budget comes from.

But I still love my Lycoming!

[201er]

Mechanic put a new skytec starter on it. Spins great but still doesn't start. Between mechanic and I trying to start it, we've only gotten it to start only 2 out of 5 attempts. He suspects the impulse coupling. Looks like the reason I burned out the old starter wasn't being completely nuts, just required a lot of turns till it would fire.

Mechanic says he's going to have to take the engine off to get to the mags. Anyone know any other way? It's really deep in there!!!!

[Hank]

My mags have been pulled withotu pulling the engine. It pays to have small hands. But I also don't have fuel injection lines to work around. Personally, I would find a different mechanic, but that's hard to do when she won't crank.

I had cranking problems twice:  once was a bad starting capacitor in the mag; the second time was eroded plugs with too large of a gap.

[201er]

Yeah, I can't go anywhere. Stuck with the local part time mechanic on the field. At this point even hand propping wouldn't necessarily start it because it is beyond a starter issue. The busted starter was the symtom and not the cause. The mechanic replaced one plug but said the others seem ok so what else could it be besides a mag problem? Well actually once started it runs fine so it really seems to point to impulse coupling.

[Hank]

It could still be the capacitor in your mag, that only supplies voltage when the key is pushed in at advance timing to make her fire off. Mine was really hard to crank, but when started ran just fine. If it doesn't fire at all, suspect either the magnetos or the shower of sparks; if it hiccups and coughs but won't catch, then I would chase plugs/couplings. But I'm no A&P, that's just how it worked out for me.

[rbridges]

I'm thinking like a car mechanic, but what about fuel pump?

[carusoam]

Thoughts on impulse or shower of sparks...

 

if this "timing advance" mechanism is not working, it will get even more difficult to start as temperatures get colder.

 

Below 40 deg F.  It may not fire at all.  Working properly it would normally start without preheat into the mid 20s

 

The opposite may be true,  try to use preheat to warm the engine to 70+ deg F.  Then crank....

 

How many hours are on the mags?

 

Best regards,

 

-a-

[danb35]

If he's telling you he has to pull the engine to get the mag off, it might be worth it for you to have your regular mechanic travel.

[KSMooniac]

I've personally R&R'd my siamese mag on my 201 without removing or evening loosening the engine.

[201er]

How do you get it out from behind all the tubing and stuff back there without disconnecting everything? Any suggestions?

[Piloto]

Quote: 201er

How do you get it out from behind all the tubing and stuff back there without disconnecting everything? Any suggestions?