Sell the J and upgrade or keep it and spend $$$$??

[Jeev]

I have a great 78 J that fits my current flying needs but of course would like something that is faster and has better climb capability. So my question is do I sell and upgrade to another aircraft or improve what I have? Here are the details:

I have had my J for 2 years and put about 500hrs on it. The first year as expected I worked out a lot of squawks and can honestly say I have it dialed in now. It has a G480, MX 20, GTX330, GDL 69 sat weather and radio and chart view.  The paint is about a 7, interior is a 7, 3800TTAF, engine has 1900 TBO but has been running perfectly with out any changes in comps (74 or above), temps, oil analysis or consumption since I have owned it.  I paid about $87k and could prob sell it for around $79-80 (vref).

I fly mostly 2hr hops around the southwest, Vegas to socal, Phoenix, san Fran, Vegas to Denver about 4 times a year, and a 1000nm+ vacation once or twice a year.  Total flying is around 200hrs a year.

So..... Do I upgrade my J with an Aspen, paint and in 2 years or less a new engine or do I pull a "Parker" and upgrade to a nice 252 or similar my budget for a new plane would be no more than $150k.

I'm torn because I love my J, it fits my current needs, I've worked out all the squawks, and it would be cheaper to hold on to it.  At the same time it is a buyers market and there are definitely times here in the SW and when I go to Denver I could really use a turbo with the DA's.

Please chime in with your opinions and experiences of feeding $$$$ a turbo.  Either way I will be sticking with a Mooney so that is a huge plus :-).

[M016576]

My opinion...

If you plan on spending money to install an aspen, or similar avionics, you're probably better off just selling your current aircraft (primarily due to the high time motor) and buying a "new" one with the avionics already in it.

Honestly, if you like your avionics package (and you have a very nice setup with the MX20, 480, 330 and GDL69), it will be difficult to find a comparable 252 or rocket that is equipped that well for your budget.  You could probably get close, though... but even close will most likely cost you a significant amount of money to get to the level you're looking for.

Then again, if you are just looking for the turbo capability, and don't really care as much about the avionics setup, then now is a good time to make the swap (particularly since your motor is approaching TBO).

If you love your J, and it fits your current needs, then no need to sell it and buy a new plane.  My missions distances are similar to yours- those 2hr trips won't be that much shorter with a K or a Rocket (maybe 15 minutes shorter?), so really you're paying for the climbing power, which then takes you into the "mask-on-o-sphere" which is OK if you like wearing the O2.  It's another cost to consider, though.  IMO- I don't plan on making another aircraft purchase until I can justify it with an absolute need (like... 6 seats... or FIKI capability... in which case I'll be looking for an old Meridian: it's pressurized, FIKI, 6 seats, reasonable operating costs). 

The third option you have is to keep your J and *not* spend the money to upgrade it- as you've got it already dialed in to where you like it.... although if corrosion is becoming a concern, I highly recommend ArtCraft for a new Paint Job- they do top notch work!

JMHO...

-Job

[PTK]

Quote: Jeev

I have a great 78 J that fits my current flying needs 

So..... Do I upgrade my J with an Aspen, paint and in 2 years or less a new engine or do I pull a "Parker" and upgrade to a nice 252 or similar my budget for a new plane would be no more than $150k.

I'm torn because I love my J, it fits my current needs, I've worked out all the squawks, and it would be cheaper to hold on to it.  

 

[jax88]

I went through the same dilema at the beginning of this year, looked at upgrading to a 252, Bravo, or Eagle from my current F.  I have had my F for just over a year now, right at a year when I decided to upgrade.  Even though I live in San Antonio, TX my reasons for considering an upgrade had everything to do with Las Vegas.  The co-pilot and I like to visit Vegas regularly, and the flight time and impact of high density on climb have made summer visits a bit uncomfortable.

Long story short, we made our decision based as follows:  at one point we had NO aircraft, so, just how much speed do we need.  The '75 F we have is a lot faster than the '05 Ford Explorer we were driving about the country before we got the Mooney.  If we don't like the idea of sweating as we make our 7-8 hour flight from San Antonio to Las Vegas, we'll fly commercial.  We can buy a lot of first class airline tickets for the price of a $150k - 175k aircraft.

It's all about what is important to you, the key is determing what really IS important to you.

[jbreda]

Your J fits most mission profiles, and I agree that you would be spending alot in a 252 for speed on an occasional flight.  If you want turbo capability and climb capability, add a turbo normaizer to your J.  I have a rebuilt RayJay system you could install on an IO-360 (originally designed for the E or F) but could be used on the J with DER approval.  It is essentially the same system as the M20 turbo system without the intercooler, and with manual wastgate.  The system could be put on for less than 1/2 the cost  of the M20 system.  You can e-mail me at johnabreda@yahoo.com or call me at 617-877-0025.  Thanks.

[testwest]

Hi Jeev

Have you considered the M-20 Turbos ( http://www.m-20turbos.com/content/products/turbo.php?link=turbo ) mod to your airplane? That would fulfill the climb and speed improvements while still retaining the economy of operation of a J.

Of course, the real mod that a few of us want (KSMooniac, myself and a couple others) would be a Tornado Alley Turbos turbonormalizing kit like they have for the Cardinal.....this is one of those possible products that is so compelling that it is worth while to wait on an upgrade until the market forces it to become available.

Also, if your engine is running well with no oil analysis or compression issues I would not major it on time alone.

It sounds odd, but the compelling market idea worked for autopilots....Avidyne and Aspen are going to take the AP retrofit market with the combo of the DFC-90 and the PFD1000....mainly because the market vacuum for autopliots had become so obvious.

Of course, my own personal "retain Mooney spirit - climb - all weather - more capability" search turned into an Aerostar 601P.

[John Pleisse]

You'll always kick yourself if you don't upgrade aircraft, because no matter what you spend to improve the J, you'll always want something better. Also, if you upgrade the J with significant $$$, you'll feel compelled to keep it to get a return on your investment, when your mission could possibly dictate an AC upgrade. I wouldn't fly around Phoenix or the desert SW w/o a turbo.

[John Pleisse]

Oh...for yucks,

Aspen EFD, $12,500....Engine and prop OH (reputable) $28k.......M20 Turbo $36k..... a hair over $70k total improvements on an airframe worth about the same.

[Jeev]

All good points and I thank you for your feedback.. As some of you have noticed I am wishy washy and really dont know what I want .. My problem is Im the kind of guy who gets a new car ever few years or so...  If I keep the J (leaning towards) I would probably not spend the $ for a turbo but I would get an Aspen and when the engine starts telling me to I will get an overhaul.  Allsmiles has a good point that I already knew but just needed to read it

I will most likley spend the $$ for the Aspen and Engine and wait till my mission and $$ dictate a Malibu or Meridian.. oooooh those are sexy!!

 

[M016576]

Quote: N4352H

... I wouldn't fly around Phoenix or the desert SW w/o a turbo.

[jetdriven]

I'd say most pilots over-improve their airplane with goo-goo gadgets and then double their cost of flying.  A 150 will get you there, a 201 to us is a rocketship.  Its also cheaper per mile than any 172, warrior, etc.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: M016576

 why not? 

Just know your aircraft capabilities and don't exceed them... I'm pretty sure people fly all sorts of aircraft without turbo chargers around Phoenix and the SW Desert... I'm one of them...

[John Pleisse]

Quote: Jeev

All good points and I thank you for your feedback.. As some of you have noticed I am wishy washy and really dont know what I want .. My problem is Im the kind of guy who gets a new car ever few years or so...  If I keep the J (leaning towards) I would probably not spend the $ for a turbo but I would get an Aspen and when the engine starts telling me to I will get an overhaul.  Allsmiles has a good point that I already knew but just needed to read it

I will most likley spend the $$ for the Aspen and Engine and wait till my mission and $$ dictate a Malibu or Meridian.. oooooh those are sexy!!

 

[1964-M20E]

I'd like to buy an Eagle, but I need it as much as a fish needs a bicycle.

[jax88]

Quote: N4352H

I wouldn't fly around Phoenix or the desert SW w/o a turbo.

[Vref]

Quote: 1964-M20E

I'd like to buy an Eagle, but I need it as much as a fish needs a bicycle.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Jeev,

Where you live, I'd want that turbo.  It's definitely not mandatory, but it is a luxury that I have come to enjoy, even in Texas and Florida.

Another consideration is if you take passengers much (are you heavily loaded a lot?).  It's helpful at getting to altitude quicker.  The next step in my 252 is to make it an Encore conversion.  My useful load will be 1050 lb or more and that I'm looking forward to.

There are a lot of nice 231s and 252s out there at a discount to past prices.  If I were you, I'd take a good look at this one.  I nearly bought it.

1981 Mooney M20K

You can't go wrong with avionics and keeping your M20J, but I have always preferred a good airframe to avionics.  It's much of the reason I bought a stripped down, but nice/capable M20J and then upgraded avionics as $ allowed.

[KSMooniac]

At what price would you consider adding a turbo-normalizer to your J?  It is a case of "the Devil you know" vs. starting over with a different airframe and de-squawking all over again.  Somewhere in that math it would make sense to add the TN kit vs. gambling on a new plane and the associated transaction costs.  

[jetdriven]

What is the cost of the TN kit, 20K? is it even available?  What is the reliability of the Lycoming with the TN kit installed? 

[grummancheetah]

Quote: grummancheetah

If you have any avionics concerns please dont hesitate to contact me at any time.

 

Just to introduce myself to you, my name is Mike Swiader at Apg/Eastern  Avionics, we are a full service Avionics company that can help you with any of your service needs from new and used parts to complete installations. One of our services is that we can assist the buyer/seller with a pre-buy for the avionics in the airplane, in other words, we can make sure all the avionics work properly, are within factory specs., and all the software is up to date and we will generate a detailed report this way the buyer knows exactly what they are purchasing. We have one of the best panel people in the country here in our facility that can custom make a panel for your airplane that is second to none. We also have a repair bench that is staffed with highly experienced personal that can test and repair any of your avionics here on site. We carry the full lines of all the manufacturers so we can offer any and all of the new state of the art electronics. If there is anything I can do for you at all please feel free to contact me at any time. We are located at the Punta Gorda, Florida airport (PGD) right next to the NEW ATC tower, and Unicom frequency 122.975. Thank You for your time and have a Great Day!!!    

 

 

Mike Swiader

APG Eastern Avionics

28260 Air Park Road Unit 114

Punta Gorda, Fl.33982

Phone:  941-637-8585  Ext: 115

Cell: 941-916-8640

mswiader@avionix.com

 

 

 

[orangemtl]

My two cents' worth:  Upgrade modestly (overhaul, new paint, and perhaps reupholstery if it's important to you), and wait until Ovations come down closer to a realistic price for you. I'm absolutely NOT an expert, but:  you seem to like what you have, so improve the things that need improvement, enjoy the plane you love, and then when doable, move to something that's an absolute step up (so long as it includes the G1000).  I had the good fortune to jump straight into an Acclaim-----I plan to die of old age, owning the same aircraft, as my skills will never exceed its abilities.

[Cris]

Simply put it really boils down to a turbo decision.  If one is in your future it is probably more cost effective to sell your J & buy a 231/252. Installing a turbo normalizer kit on a J is 32 K from the aftermarket folks plus installation. Since you are buying new you are unlikely to recoupe the purchase price at resale. There is of course a value to keeping what you know but the devil is in the details. Currently the J & K models are close in aquisition costs so the $ differance is in the maintenace & somewhat higher fuel flows. That has been adequately discussed elsewhere as to wheather or not it really costs more to run a turbo. So do a search on that topic which should help your decision process.    

[jbreda]

Needed to post this to get off the subscriber's list - sorry

[M016576]

Quote: N4352H

 why not? 

Just know your aircraft capabilities and don't exceed them... I'm pretty sure people fly all sorts of aircraft without turbo chargers around Phoenix and the SW Desert... I'm one of them...

Re: 201 vs 231

Posted Aug 7, 2011 2:36 PM

M016576: "I own a J, so I'm automatically biased... (disclaimer up front)"

"Again, that's all just my opinion..."

 

 

[M016576]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Jeev,

Where you live, I'd want that turbo.  It's definitely not mandatory, but it is a luxury that I have come to enjoy, even in Texas and Florida.

Another consideration is if you take passengers much (are you heavily loaded a lot?).  It's helpful at getting to altitude quicker.  The next step in my 252 is to make it an Encore conversion.  My useful load will be 1050 lb or more and that I'm looking forward to.

There are a lot of nice 231s and 252s out there at a discount to past prices.  If I were you, I'd take a good look at this one.  I nearly bought it.

1981 Mooney M20K

You can't go wrong with avionics and keeping your M20J, but I have always preferred a good airframe to avionics.  It's much of the reason I bought a stripped down, but nice/capable M20J and then upgraded avionics as $ allowed.