Right rudder?

[moonlighting7]

Hey guys.... So got my dual in and am loving the Mooney!!!  Burns less fuel than my beech and waaayyy faster... Tailwind and 160kt GS...

Any how... Crosswind take off.. left Quartering headwind of 15kt all the right rudder she had wouldn't keep the nose right... She went like a weathervane right into the wind.  If this had been a parallel runway.... Well I'd been in deep ****... Sooooo.. Normal?   Can't imagine so but have no coordination issue till this experience?

66 m20e

Thanks

[carusoam]

Does your 66E have the full length rudder?

 

My 65C had an improvement over the B... the rudder throw was increased...

After 65, the C got its rudder extended...

After that there is a bit of CFI discussion on techniques...

15kt quartering headwind shouldn’t have you losing the Centerline...

PP thoughts, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

25 minutes ago, moonlighting7 said:

left Quartering headwind of 15kt all the right rudder she had wouldn't keep the nose right... She went like a weathervane right into the wind.  If this had been a parallel runway.... Well I'd been in deep ****... Sooooo.. Normal?   Can't imagine so but have no coordination issue till this experience?

When did it weather vane, on take off roll or after rotation, was it a 15kt direct x-wind and how much aileron did you have in. My 65 E handles a direct x-wind of 15kts pretty well

[moonlighting7]

Was Quartering head wind not direct x wind... And hard to tell how much as my initial dip left was quickly squashed by the weathervane after lift off.   I flew a Sundowner before this and she was amazing in crosswind... So this flight characteristic really threw me.   I had to land just over demonstrated one time in Wyoming and the guys in the tower said they were ready to call EMS any second and complimented the landing... My attitude indicator showed almost a standard rate turn just before touchdown.... Granted that was wind from the right.... And a totally different plane.

[moonlighting7]

Full length... I'd say... Yes?

[takair]

I think that’s the short rudder.  Long rudder Includes the fuselage.  Mine will do 15kts X wind, but you do need to be aggressive and you do start to run out of rudder and ailerons.  The hard part can be the transition between nose gear on ground and in air on TO.  Need to anticipate that transition.  Practice practice practice.  While I’ve done more than 15 kit X wind component, I myself get uncomfortable with the short rudder.

[Ned Gravel]

question deleted

[steingar]

My airport has parallel runways and I've not found this to be an issue.  Mine is a 62 with a somewhat shorter rudder.

[David Lloyd]

Your Mooney will handle pretty much any crosswind you are comfortable flying.  Your recent experience was most likely a matter of new airplane feel versus old airplane and muscle memory.  Several thousand hours in a F33A and due to it's tendency to weathervane into the wind during takeoff, I was always more apprehensive when taking off than when landing.  Mooney, I never noticed that tendency.

[Yetti]

Did you have correction in on the takeoff roll?   Then gently release correction as you lift off?   The Mooney is really good in a cross wind because of it's low cross section.   That being said I do one wheel landings in gust cross winds since the tail gets blown around a bit.  And I have a full length rudder.

[DXB]

The short body Mooneys went to the full length rudder in ‘69.   I have the short rudder and have never found it lacking in  authority - I have never come close to running out of rudder on a takeoff roll even in a strong direct crosswind.  If you are doing as @Yetti describes above, there is something else wrong here, perhaps with the steering mechanism.  

BTW even my primitive ‘68 POH has a few words on crosswind takeoff technique.  It might be worth reviewing.

Edited August 21, 2019 by DXB

[Ragsf15e]

I’m not trying to be a jerk and I don’t know everything... however, “weather vane” is generally something that can happen on the ground.  Usually after a crosswind landing or possibly early in a takeoff roll.  Typically when aircraft speed is lower.  It can generally be controlled easily with correct inputs-especially if the nose is on the ground as you’ll have steering.

During takeoff roll, ailerons turned into the wind and rudder to hold centerline are important.  It’s possible, but pretty difficult to run out of rudder during takeoff.  If you find yourself pointing somewhere or drifting somewhere you don’t want to go AFTER takeoff, you have a technique issue.  Either more practice or a flight with a cfi should straighten you out.  After takeoff it doesn’t matter how much rudder you have.  Unlike landing in a crosswind, after taking off, you should stay coordinated.  If a crosswind is pushing you off centerline, make a small (like 5 degrees) turn into the wind, then rollout.  Yes, it looks like you’re flying sideways, but the ball should be centered and you’ll be holding right rudder for the climb.  Landing requires a slip (ball not centered) and landing on one wheel to keep side loads down on the gear while maintaining centerline.  After takeoff, you can crab into the wind to hold centerline which is much more efficient.  How’s that sound?

[jaylw314]

14 hours ago, moonlighting7 said:

Hey guys.... So got my dual in and am loving the Mooney!!!  Burns less fuel than my beech and waaayyy faster... Tailwind and 160kt GS...

Any how... Crosswind take off.. left Quartering headwind of 15kt all the right rudder she had wouldn't keep the nose right... She went like a weathervane right into the wind.  If this had been a parallel runway.... Well I'd been in deep ****... Sooooo.. Normal?   Can't imagine so but have no coordination issue till this experience?

66 m20e

Thanks

 

39 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m not trying to be a jerk and I don’t know everything... however, “weather vane” is generally something that can happen on the ground.  Usually after a crosswind landing or possibly early in a takeoff roll.  Typically when aircraft speed is lower.  It can generally be controlled easily with correct inputs-especially if the nose is on the ground as you’ll have steering.

During takeoff roll, ailerons turned into the wind and rudder to hold centerline are important.  It’s possible, but pretty difficult to run out of rudder during takeoff.  If you find yourself pointing somewhere or drifting somewhere you don’t want to go AFTER takeoff, you have a technique issue.  Either more practice or a flight with a cfi should straighten you out.  After takeoff it doesn’t matter how much rudder you have.  Unlike landing in a crosswind, after taking off, you should stay coordinated.  If a crosswind is pushing you off centerline, make a small (like 5 degrees) turn into the wind, then rollout.  Yes, it looks like you’re flying sideways, but the ball should be centered and you’ll be holding right rudder for the climb.  Landing requires a slip (ball not centered) and landing on one wheel to keep side loads down on the gear while maintaining centerline.  After takeoff, you can crab into the wind to hold centerline which is much more efficient.  How’s that sound?

+1.  your description confuses me.  You're supposed to "weathervane" or crab into the wind after liftoff.  Likewise, there's no way the plane should be weathervaning before the weight comes off the nosewheel if the nosewheel is centered.  So I suspect you're talking about that brief moment after the weight comes off the nosewheel, but the mains are still on the ground.  I was always taught to plan to lift off more briskly in a crosswind to minimize the length of that moment, and to be prepared for it.

I'd suspect a technique issue if you were coming from a Cessna or a Grumman without a direct linkage to the nosewheel, but you're not.

 

[carusoam]

Seems like a lot of guessing...

How new is flying with 180hp to you?

Do you have 100hours of experience in a C152?  (Experience I had when I got my M20C)

Which Side did the cross wind come from?  How did you handle the P-factor?

If you handled the P-factor like a C152, and the cross wind was from the right... you got surprised and I know why...  

Did you use any of the cross-wind take-off procedure?

 

Seriously consider getting the transition training that you want, deserve, can afford...

Its not the plane.

But she is talking to you.

The picture of the tail is nicely cropped, and out of focus...

The extended rudder, when present, is below the horizontal stabilizer.

I expect that you could have done better if you wanted to.  You don’t seem to be taking this very seriously... or you are afraid to let on your low level of experience...

It may be a better approach to play with an open hand... you are in the right place.

 

i’m Glad you asked the question... don’t be surprised... there is a lot to know.  

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

Would not surprise me if others will add more advice but when departing into a cross wind I start out with full aileron deflection into the crosswind as speed increases and you gain control Authority I will reduce deflection and when rotation I only have to make a small correction to maintain runway heading  I don't recall ever using rudder other than to maintain coordinated flight. Factoring in P factor there is very little rudder needed to keep it on the upwind heading. Nose just points into the wind. Our 64 has the short rudder and I have never felt like I had too little rudder and have flown into and out of some pretty strong 90 degree crosswinds. I think this situation your having is a lack of training and experience with a new to you airplane. Don't worry get some more transition training and it will come.

I was still trying to figure out what you were trying to describe. The nose is pointing into the left crosswind. It's supposed to do that don't try to get it to point right . Maintain runway heading with role and coordinate with rudder. 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, bonal said:

Would not surprise me if others will add more advice but when departing into a cross wind I start out with full aileron deflection into the crosswind as speed increases and you gain control Authority I will reduce deflection and when rotation I only have to make a small correction to maintain runway heading  I don't recall ever using rudder other than to maintain coordinated flight. Factoring in P factor there is very little rudder needed to keep it on the upwind heading. Nose just points into the wind. Our 64 has the short rudder and I have never felt like I had too little rudder and have flown into and out of some pretty strong 90 degree crosswinds. I think this situation your having is a lack of training and experience with a new to you airplane. Don't worry get some more transition training and it will come.

I was still trying to figure out what you were trying to describe. The nose is pointing into the left crosswind. It's supposed to do that don't try to get it to point right . Maintain runway heading with role and coordinate with rudder. 

Exactly right!

[Hank]

20 hours ago, moonlighting7 said:

Full length... I'd say... Yes?

That looks like a short rudder. This is the long rudder on my C, notice how it goes below the horizontal stab.

Crosswinds have never been a problem, even 50° left in the teens plus 10-12 mph gusts.

[bradp]

This seems like technique not the aerodynamics of the aircraft

My technique - aileron full into the direction of the crosswind when lined up; slowly ease up on aileron deflection as you accelerate.  I leave the plane on the ground a bit longer than in a calm wind scenario.  A few knots is all. This will make sure that you're at flying speed in case 1) you have loss of a gust factor and you would potentially sink / stall in ground effect or 2) you're muddling around with a moment on your gear putting lateral forces on if you rotate early before you start flying.  I also want to "get out of Dodge" - don't want gusts or roll tendencies when I'm close to the ground.

Once you're airborne, as mentioned above, you should crab into the wind.  Unless you're on an IFR plan with an instruction to "fly runway heading."  Then the drift is accounted for by the controllers and it's expected.  You should absolutely not be climbing out cross controlled. 

One other finer point - think about the winds on the surface and the winds aloft.  If there's a shear layer just above the tree line, or if the winds are relatively calm / crosswind at the surface and wind's aloft turn into a significant tail wind component suddenly, this can matter if you're at the edge of the performance envelope.  Think about your windsock and think about what you'll encounter above the treeline.  Both matter.

Not a CFI etc

[1967 427]

WOW, I’ve owned my 66C for 7 years and never knew that there was such a thing as a short and a long rudder.  I knew from day one that I had a lot less rudder on my Mooney compared to my Cessna.  My airport is notorious for crosswinds, and I was taught both methods for flying on final - cross controlling and flying runway heading and also flying crab, and kicking it around to runway heading as I am flaring.  I realized that my preference was to cross control.  With a good stiff crosswind the only way I can make a good landing is crabbing it in.  Just takes a bit of getting practice and getting used to, and one deal with rather heavy crosswinds at large angles.

 

From what I have just learned, I have a small tail.

 

[Ragsf15e]

4 minutes ago, 1967 427 said:

WOW, I’ve owned my 66C for 7 years and never knew that there was such a thing as a short and a long rudder.  I knew from day one that I had a lot less rudder on my Mooney compared to my Cessna.  My airport is notorious for crosswinds, and I was taught both methods for flying on final - cross controlling and flying runway heading and also flying crab, and kicking it around to runway heading as I am flaring.  I realized that my preference was to cross control.  With a good stiff crosswind the only way I can make a good landing is crabbing it in.  Just takes a bit of getting practice and getting used to, and one deal with rather heavy crosswinds at large angles.

 

From what I have just learned, I have a small tail.

 

In fact, these two commonly taught techniques are doing the same thing, using a forward slip to align the nose with the runway and bank to kill lateral drift.  They only differ on when the are applied... final or flare.  Just remember the RAP acronym and apply the controls in this order... Rudder to align nose with runway , Ailerons to stop lateral drift (will be opposite direction of rudder, thus slipping), Power added to compensate for uncoordinated flight.  Probably no extra power needed if you do it in the flare.

In either case, land aligned with the centerline, no side drift, likely upwind wheel first.

[MB65E]

I’ll bite! My short rudder 65E will head for the weeds with strong left x-winds. I don’t think the C’s have the torque to head for the weeds. The F’s have a longer tail moment that helps too. So my assumption would be this is something unique to the (short-rudder) M20E’s. I mitigate takeoffs with winds from the left with slow application of the throttle. Honestly,  I’ll take off with a slight tail wind from the right before a left x-wind. 

I tried a static takeoff once with a 30° left wind blowing to 20kts. Almost took out a sign. I pulled it off early and flew over the grass for a bit. That got my attention!!

The rudder is small, the torque and P-factor are high. A little more wind from the left than normal and you can have issues. 

My rudder, peddles, and nose wheel are all rigged correctly. New steering horn and all. I Probably have something around 350-400 hrs in the airplane. 

Just some thoughts, 

-Matt

[moonlighting7]

9 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m not trying to be a jerk and I don’t know everything... however, “weather vane” is generally something that can happen on the ground.  Usually after a crosswind landing or possibly early in a takeoff roll.  Typically when aircraft speed is lower.  It can generally be controlled easily with correct inputs-especially if the nose is on the ground as you’ll have steering.

During takeoff roll, ailerons turned into the wind and rudder to hold centerline are important.  It’s possible, but pretty difficult to run out of rudder during takeoff.  If you find yourself pointing somewhere or drifting somewhere you don’t want to go AFTER takeoff, you have a technique issue.  Either more practice or a flight with a cfi should straighten you out.  After takeoff it doesn’t matter how much rudder you have.  Unlike landing in a crosswind, after taking off, you should stay coordinated.  If a crosswind is pushing you off centerline, make a small (like 5 degrees) turn into the wind, then rollout.  Yes, it looks like you’re flying sideways, but the ball should be centered and you’ll be holding right rudder for the climb.  Landing requires a slip (ball not centered) and landing on one wheel to keep side loads down on the gear while maintaining centerline.  After takeoff, you can crab into the wind to hold centerline which is much more efficient.  How’s that sound?

Sounds right... My"issue" was actually flying off center line and into the wind.... It wasn't blowing me off center....

Right full rudder and tail went right... Reliving this in my mind I did relax my dip into the wind because I was nosing into it... So maybe a right turn back towards center but that felt wrong... Especially as I was trying to get settled for climb.  But I agree... More practice.

[moonlighting7]

1 minute ago, MB65E said:

I’ll bite! My short rudder 65E will head for the weeds with strong left x-winds. I don’t think the C’s have the torque to head for the weeds. The F’s have a longer tail moment that helps too. So my assumption would be this is something unique to the M20E’s. I mitigate takeoffs with winds from the left with slow application of the throttle. Honestly,  I’ll take off with a slight tail wind from the right before a left x-wind. 

I tried a static takeoff once with a 30° left wind blowing to 20kts. Almost took out a sign. I pulled it off early and flew over the grass for a bit. That got my attention!!

The rudder is small, the torque and P-factor are high. A little more wind from the left than normal and you can have issues. 

My rudder, peddles, and nose wheel are all rigged correctly. New steering horn and all. I Probably have something around 350-400 hrs in the airplane. 

Just some thoughts, 

-Matt

Glad to hear something similar...I was going to get the rigging checked next week... Lol. Will prob still have that done.

[Hank]

23 hours ago, moonlighting7 said:

Hey guys.... So got my dual in and am loving the Mooney!!!  Burns less fuel than my beech and waaayyy faster... Tailwind and 160kt GS...

Any how... Crosswind take off.. left Quartering headwind of 15kt all the right rudder she had wouldn't keep the nose right... She went like a weathervane right into the wind.  If this had been a parallel runway.... Well I'd been in deep ****... Sooooo.. Normal?   Can't imagine so but have no coordination issue till this experience?

66 m20e

Thanks

Wait a minute--you have a left crosswind, which will blow the plane right, and right rudder to push the nose right, but are turning left? Wind is hitting the tail, pushing tail right / nose left as you begin to climb. This is expected.

Why is this a problem? Stay coordinated, keep your ground track aligned with the runway; who cares what direction the nose points? 

When the crosswind is blowing, I do like my Owners Manual says and go a little faster then snatch it off the runway. My normal rotation is 70 mph, so I'll hold it on until 75 then pop off quickly and weathervane away.

P.S.--I've had flights where my wife and I looked out the side windows to watch where we were going due to winds aloft. I've also weathervaned 45° one way or the other when climbing above the treetops. Stay coordinated and make the plane fly where you want it to go, nose direction be durned because it doesn't matter in the air except when trying to land.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Hank

[moonlighting7]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

Seems like a lot of guessing...

How new is flying with 180hp to you?

Do you have 100hours of experience in a C152?  (Experience I had when I got my M20C)

Which Side did the cross wind come from?  How did you handle the P-factor?

If you handled the P-factor like a C152, and the cross wind was from the right... you got surprised and I know why...  

Did you use any of the cross-wind take-off procedure?

 

Seriously consider getting the transition training that you want, deserve, can afford...

Its not the plane.

But she is talking to you.

The picture of the tail is nicely cropped, and out of focus...

The extended rudder, when present, is below the horizontal stabilizer.

I expect that you could have done better if you wanted to.  You don’t seem to be taking this very seriously... or you are afraid to let on your low level of experience...

It may be a better approach to play with an open hand... you are in the right place.

 

i’m Glad you asked the question... don’t be surprised... there is a lot to know.  

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Ok so...I cropped the pic to show the hinge... Never knew they went full length.  Two it's a 200hp not 180.  I have 200+ hours behind a180... I have like 10 hrs in a152 so no idea where you got that from.  I have a legit concern... Not hiding anything. Follow my posts!  I just bought the plane and am learning it.  If your commenting to help them great... You appear just to criticize... So kindly take that elsewhere.