2 Mooneys Touch Mid-Air Inbound to OSH?

[donkaye]

13 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

 

Several folks have been urging me to apply and I have already done so. Four great friends, long time Mooney promoters were kind enough to write letters of recommendation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Did my first solo on October 31, 1967.  Applied for and received the Master Pilot Award last year.  The FAA makes quite a production of that, including giving you a "Blue Ribbon Package" that includes everything the FAA has received on you.  They are usually a couple of inches thick.

[RobertE]

Hey folks.  I’ve been following this topic but, honestly, haven’t read every one of the posts in this now 9 page long discussion, which means I might have missed something important. 

Someone reasonably observed that roughly 10,000 aircraft have arrived annually for many, many years at a cost of what is thus far just one midair, whereas the caravan, with far, far fewer numbers of participants, now also has experienced one midair.  That’s a  fair point. Let me toss in one little factoid that I find interesting and, perhaps, relevant.

Years ago I attended an air show at which the Thunderbirds performed.  The evening after that show there was a small cocktail party in which they were the guests of honor (I drank, they didn’t, even though their only flying would be to depart the next day).  Anyway, I asked one of the pilots what was something about the Thunderbirds I would be surprised to learn.  His answer? He said, “well, you know, we usually have about one midair per year.  It’s very minor, but we do touch”.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, RobertE said:

Years ago I attended an air show at which the Thunderbirds performed.  The evening after that show there was a small cocktail party in which they were the guests of honor (I drank, they didn’t, even though their only flying would be to depart the next day).  Anyway, I asked one of the pilots what was something about the Thunderbirds I would be surprised to learn.  His answer? He said, “well, you know, we usually have about one midair per year.  It’s very minor, but we do touch”.

The Thunderbirds, like the Blue Angels, fly in dozens of shows around the country every year, each an hour or so long, and sometimes purposefully a fraction of a wingspan apart.

The Mooney Caravan flies once a year, about 20 minutes, and they plan to be 1/2 mile apart until final when they shorten up to still be more than a wingspan apart to land.

Not quite a good comparison . . . .

[KSMooniac]

The Mooney Caravan flies once a year, about 20 minutes, and they plan to be 1/2 mile apart until final when they shorten up to still be more than a wingspan apart to land.
Not quite a good comparison . . . .

This is not factually correct. You could start by reading the Caravan manual before making assertions about an unfamiliar subject.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[skydvrboy]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

You young whippersnapper! I soloed at 43, PPL at 44, IA at 47. While I hope to become a UFI, flying at 93 is rather doubtful . . . .

Don't give up just yet!  My neighbor just hung up his wings and sold his BO.  His last flight as PIC was at 92 and he was still a hell of a pilot.

[steingar]

On 8/5/2019 at 1:10 AM, Bob_Belville said:

To a friend who didn’t fly Caravan this year I observed that “stuff happens”. Most of the time we get away with it, sometimes we get bit in the backside.

If I don’t fly Caravan next year it will be because someone has pulled the plug on an old fool, not because I count Caravan as particularly risky.

Bob, if that's all you guys have to say to the folks in charge of these flights there won't be any more.  Thankfully it sounds like wiser heads are prevailing, truly welcome news.  I was getting worried.

The only plug I want to see pulled on you is the one up your six.  Glad to hear you had a good trip with your second generation spawn.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

The Thunderbirds, like the Blue Angels, fly in dozens of shows around the country every year, each an hour or so long, and sometimes purposefully a fraction of a wingspan apart.

Not sure about the Thunderbirds, but I recall a jarring statistic about the Blue Angels in a documentary a few years back that, historically, about 10% of Blue Angel pilots did not survive their 2 year stint.  Admittedly, that is not just mid-air collisions, but includes all other types of training accidents and crashes, but it's a pretty sobering statistic...

[Gary0747]

Are there any posted photos of this touch damage?  I saw the video but it was too far away to tell much?  

[yvesg]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

The Thunderbirds, like the Blue Angels, fly in dozens of shows around the country every year, each an hour or so long, and sometimes purposefully a fraction of a wingspan apart.

The Mooney Caravan flies once a year, about 20 minutes, and they plan to be 1/2 mile apart until final when they shorten up to still be more than a wingspan apart to land.

Not quite a good comparison . . . .

1/2 a mile apart? until final?

 

[Hank]

43 minutes ago, yvesg said:

Wow! It's the rare Twin Mooney! Performs like a small Twin Mustang, I've heard . . . . 

[Bob_Belville]

The Thunderbirds, like the Blue Angels, fly in dozens of shows around the country every year, each an hour or so long, and sometimes purposefully a fraction of a wingspan apart. The Mooney Caravan flies once a year, about 20 minutes, and they plan to be 1/2 mile apart until final when they shorten up to still be more than a wingspan apart to land.

Not quite a good comparison . . . .

 

 

Hank, while no one would contend Caravan arrival to AirVenture is a Thunderbird performance, you are ignorant of what Caravan is.

 

No one flying in Caravan flies formation “0nce a year”

 

And the flight is not “20 minutes “

 

And your 1/2 mile comment is weird. Each 3 plane element is 15 seconds (less than 1/2 mile) in trail of the element they’re following but the planes in the element are much closer than you imagine whether in fingertip or route position. Are you confusing Mooney Caravan with a gaggle as performed years ago with Mooneys and some other groups today. 1/2 mile is not formation!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Hank, while no one would contend Caravan arrival to AirVenture is a Thunderbird performance, you are ignorant of what Caravan is.

No one flying in Caravan flies formation “0nce a year”

And the flight is not “20 minutes “

The Blues and Birds fly lots and lots of practice with each other, then they have several dozen shows. Caravan participants fly some practice, not necessarily with who they are paired with to Osh. The actual Caravan is once a year., Madison to Osh the weekend before the Show.

As for length, I'm sorry, is it a 30-minute flight?

I'm not saying Caravanners don't practice, but they practice in small groups, not the elements they will fly in, and never as an entire formation. The Blues get hundreds of hours together before Air Show season starts. There is no comparison, and trying to do so is silly.

[irishpilot]

Hey folks.  I’ve been following this topic but, honestly, haven’t read every one of the posts in this now 9 page long discussion, which means I might have missed something important. 
Someone reasonably observed that roughly 10,000 aircraft have arrived annually for many, many years at a cost of what is thus far just one midair, whereas the caravan, with far, far fewer numbers of participants, now also has experienced one midair.  That’s a  fair point. Let me toss in one little factoid that I find interesting and, perhaps, relevant.
Years ago I attended an air show at which the Thunderbirds performed.  The evening after that show there was a small cocktail party in which they were the guests of honor (I drank, they didn’t, even though their only flying would be to depart the next day).  Anyway, I asked one of the pilots what was something about the Thunderbirds I would be surprised to learn.  His answer? He said, “well, you know, we usually have about one midair per year.  It’s very minor, but we do touch”.

That must have been a long time ago. The modern Thunderbirds don't swap paint as part of the show. The team starts at 3' and works their way to 18" towards the end of the show season (after about 150+ flights).

However, still is a dangerous business. We recently lost Cajun. https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/10/16/report-thunderbirds-pilot-killed-in-crash-lost-consciousness-in-high-g-maneuver/

Fly Safe,
Safety Forum Mod

[KSMooniac]

 

 

 

Caravan participants fly some practice, not necessarily with who they are paired with to Osh. The actual Caravan is once a year., Madison to Osh the weekend before the Show.

As for length, I'm sorry, is it a 30-minute flight?

I'm not saying Caravanners don't practice, but they practice in small groups, not the elements they will fly in, and never as an entire formation.

You're still factually incorrect, but keep asserting about that which you do not know...

 

Better yet, sign up for a 2020 clinic and come see for yourself. I suspect you'll change your perspective completely.

 

 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

You're still factually incorrect, but keep asserting about that which you do not know...

Better yet, sign up for a 2020 clinic and come see for yourself. I suspect you'll change your perspective completely.

So which facts are wrong? Does the Caravan fly more than once a year? Does the whole group practice together, in the air, before going to Osh? I did study up on the pre-formation-training Caravan, as i had a decent shot at attending when based in WV. Now scheduling is somewhat more difficult . . . And the timing interferes with the CFO's annual family confab at the beach [tyoically 50-60 people].

Oh, I did discover that it's 61nm KMSN-KOSH, so 30 minutes is pretty close, takeoff to touchdown. With all the ground time, pilots probably log an hour, more so for those at the back. But the flight itself is still only about 30 minutes.

This reminds me of a friend who invited me to join the Masons. I said "what do you do?" His answer, like yours, was "join and find out." My answer was "I don't have time to join every group I hear about to find out what they do and if I'll enjoy it. I find out first; if it sounds like a good fit, I'll go visit; if it's good, I'll stay and join." So thanks for your kind offer to join up and find out what it's like, but I don't have time to join even every flying group that I hear about to see what each one is like and if it's a good match for me . . . .

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

So which facts are wrong? Does the Caravan fly more than once a year? Does the whole group practice together, in the air, before going to Osh? I did study up on the pre-formation-training Caravan, as i had a decent shot at attending when based in WV. Now scheduling is somewhat more difficult . . . And the timing interferes with the CFO's annual family confab at the beach [tyoically 50-60 people].

Oh, I did discover that it's 61nm KMSN-KOSH, so 30 minutes is pretty close, takeoff to touchdown. With all the ground time, pilots probably log an hour, more so for those at the back. But the flight itself is still only about 30 minutes.

This reminds me of a friend who invited me to join the Masons. I said "what do you do?" His answer, like yours, was "join and find out." My answer was "I don't have time to join every group I hear about to find out what they do and if I'll enjoy it. I find out first; if it sounds like a good fit, I'll go visit; if it's good, I'll stay and join." So thanks for your kind offer to join up and find out what it's like, but I don't have time to join even every flying group that I hear about to see what each one is like and if it's a good match for me . . . .

No one is criticizing anyone for not flying with the Caravan or attending a Caravan clinic. But those of us who do and who have are critical of anyone giving out "facts" as if they know... which you obviously don't.

[KSMooniac]

This year was a 40 minute flight from takeoff to rollout. Lots more ground time of course. We don't fly at typical cruise power since there might be a G or an Acclaim in the group.

I was in an element from my home group, and have flown/trained/practiced with them many times over the last few years. We fly 2, 3, or 4 ship elements for practice throughout the year for proficiency and fun. 2 years ago I was also in an element from home. The Caravan flight to OSH is nothing more complicated than a 3 ship element flying in real formation. Not Blue Angel close, but close enough to see people in the lead plane. The fact that there is another element 15 seconds ahead of and behind you doesn't change what you do within your own element. The procedure works for 6 planes, or 60, or 120. Leads are responsible for spacing between elements (15 sec target) and wingmen are responsible for staying in position on their lead, and nothing else.

But since the procedures have been standardized across all Caravan groups, I can fly with anyone else that has trained and been approved. Perhaps I might want a practice flight with new folks on Friday in Madison...and there is time for that if needed.

Did I mention how fun it is?

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[CaptainOveur]

On 8/6/2019 at 9:47 AM, Hank said:

The Thunderbirds, like the Blue Angels, fly in dozens of shows around the country every year, each an hour or so long, and sometimes purposefully a fraction of a wingspan apart.

The Mooney Caravan flies once a year, about 20 minutes, and they plan to be 1/2 mile apart until final when they shorten up to still be more than a wingspan apart to land.

Not quite a good comparison . . . .

So no Caravan pilots fly at all during the year except for the particular Caravan event?  That seems reckless...why wouldn't they practice during the year at all?  Just one flight a year, huh?

[CaptainOveur]

21 hours ago, Hank said:

This reminds me of a friend who invited me to join the Masons. I said "what do you do?" His answer, like yours, was "join and find out." My answer was "I don't have time to join every group I hear about to find out what they do and if I'll enjoy it. I find out first; if it sounds like a good fit, I'll go visit; if it's good, I'll stay and join." So thanks for your kind offer to join up and find out what it's like, but I don't have time to join even every flying group that I hear about to see what each one is like and if it's a good match for me . . . .

Seems like a great strategy for you, who is obviously a very busy guy, and for all of these other groups, who manage to get by as well without you.  Works for everyone, keep it up!

[CaptainOveur]

23 hours ago, Hank said:

The Blues and Birds fly lots and lots of practice with each other, then they have several dozen shows. Caravan participants fly some practice, not necessarily with who they are paired with to Osh. The actual Caravan is once a year., Madison to Osh the weekend before the Show.

As for length, I'm sorry, is it a 30-minute flight?

I'm not saying Caravanners don't practice, but they practice in small groups, not the elements they will fly in, and never as an entire formation. The Blues get hundreds of hours together before Air Show season starts. There is no comparison, and trying to do so is silly.

Do you opine on the other groups you are too busy to find about out, or is it just this one?  It's amazing you have such depth of knowledge about Blues, Birds and the Caravan groups around the country.  How do you find the time?

[CaptainOveur]

On 8/6/2019 at 4:19 PM, Gary0747 said:

Are there any posted photos of this touch damage?  I saw the video but it was too far away to tell much?  

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CaptainOveur said:

Seems like a great strategy for you, who is obviously a very busy guy, and for all of these other groups, who manage to get by as well without you.  Works for everyone, keep it up!

Wow!  A guy with a just few posts taking on one of our senior members.  Really nice, welcome to Mooneyspace 

Clarence

[CaptainOveur]

Man, these ARE tough birds...

[CaptainOveur]

4 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Wow!  A guy with a just few posts taking on one of our senior members.  Really nice, welcome to Mooneyspace 

Clarence

Thanks, just asking questions and making observations.  Is that allowed?

[CaptainOveur]

On 8/3/2019 at 2:38 PM, bradp said:

Nobody's sworn to any type of secrecy - planes N numbers are right on the ASIS database.  A majority of the carvaner's and a bunch of the Mooneyspace social participants laid eyes on the damaged planes, and the pilots are not anonymous.  There's a 2019 Mooney caravan video on youtube with clips of 1) the formation element that had the accident flying together  2) damage visible on the two accident aircraft, and 3) even a cameo with the FAA guys inspecting damage to the leading edge of one of the aircraft.  Nothing is hidden - the hush hush is just trying to be respectful of the pilot's wishes until the dust settles for their perceived (founded or unfounded) concerns.  If the pilots said let's talk about this now and caravan said No No! I'd be one of the first to start talking.  Since the pilots said wait please- we can do that for what - another month...?  Once the pilots say let's discuss, well then... let's discuss.  They're both on Mooneyspace... until then let's just be patient.  On an internet forum.  In an age where the waiting is the hardest part.  

This seems a very sensible view ... except for those of us who want MY NEEDS MET NOW NOW NOW!!!  

Did the internet give us that?  Or just give those of us who think like that a megaphone?  Hard to tell, I don't know the answer and maybe it is not worth thinking about since we have the internet.  Back to the cave for me!