Does Anyone Have a KI300?

[johnw413]

Hi,

  My KI256 seems to be getting slow and the KFC200 will do sudden uncommanded banks. I'm interested in maybe replacing the 256 with the KI300 but have yet to find anyone, anywhere that has one or even seen one, let alone the KA310 AP adapter.

  I worry that BK will drop this AI before it ever ships. Seems like there is a big market of KFC/KAP + KI256 users who would would like to modernize w/o a 5-figure installed cost. The only real installs I've read about are Aspens.

  Anyone know anything about the KI300? Is it real?

Thanks,

John W

1981 M20J

 

[LANCECASPER]

I don't think you'll ever see a King KI-300 in the wild. It is based off of the Sandia Quattro 340A which has a horrendous failure rate.

Sandia was down for over a year while the FAA re-certified the 340 and now it's a 340A and from what I hear  lately much worse than the 340.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=151152&hilit=sandia

[johnw413]

  I'm not surprised, but very disappointed. Sounds like I'll just have to OH the KI256.

 The Aspen looks pretty good but last year I blew 25 amu on avionics and don't want to do it again this year.

 

[Bryan]

37 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

One solution couldd be a G5.  But not sure it will drive the ap

There is pretty good rumor that Garmin will have a box that could be announced around OSH timeframe that could drive ATT based King autopilots, but currently (today) the G5 cannot drive the AP alone.  It will provide HDG/GPSS data but not Attitude data.

[johnw413]

  My understanding is that you need at least a G500 to interface with the GAD-43e to get the attitude info to the AP. I believe the G5 will drive the heading info but doesn't really have the outputs to control a KFC-type AP, not to mention the FD part.

[Austintatious]

Add me to the list of people interested in this.   I see the KI300 is available now but the KA310 is not.

It baffles me that there is not a simple solution for people in similar shoes to me.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Austintatious

[Niko182]

I like this joke.

[Niko182]

additional note, if Garmin creates a box that lets the g5 interact with the KFC autopilots, Bendix king is going to lose a big portion of the very little leverage they have left. IMO Bendix king creating vaporware, such as KI300, is a smart move to keep people overhauling their 256's, so that once the 300 does "come out", it'll be an easy replacement. Garmin coming out with an affordable box that does the all the things the KI256 and 300 does is going to hurt the already injured company. I personally advice anyone from to avoid repairing BK items, and just replacing them.

[Austintatious]

good point Niko,

That KI300 would probably look weird above my G5 anyway.

[johnw413]

  My avionics shop is a BK dealer and they ordered a KI300 in January. However, when they called BK they were told the KI300 was shipping! I was also told they had not had failure issues with the Sandia 340.

  The current STC covers a bunch of Bonanzas as well as the M20J, K and L, the latter being kind of a fluke. They are still waiting on the FAA's blessing of the KA310 AP adapter, i.e. they say the current delay is caused by the FAA not BK. They expect the KA310 will ship in maybe July.

  Given that news, I plan to buy a used KI256 mod11 from the shop and wait until after OSH to decide what AI/AP option to choose. I'm frankly wary of buying any new BK stuff but maybe there really is a Santa Claus.

[seaero]

The KI-300 stand alone instrument is available now. Bendix King part number 89000004-100-00. Consider this version comparable to a standard Garmin G5. We have sold a handful of them and the customers seem to be happy with it.

The KI-256 replacement version/system (i.e. KA-310) is not available yet. We were told hopefully end of Q3 2019.

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, seaero said:

The KI-300 stand alone instrument is available now. Bendix King part number 89000004-100-00. Consider this version comparable to a standard Garmin G5. We have sold a handful of them and the customers seem to be happy with it.

The KI-256 replacement version/system (i.e. KA-310) is not available yet. We were told hopefully end of Q3 2019.

If they don't have a backup Attitude indicator they have no idea how far off the indicator is. The Sandia 340A is consistently off according to onwers on the Beechtalk forum.

[Oldguy]

12 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

If they don't have a backup Attitude indicator they have no idea how far off the indicator is. The Sandia 340A is consistently off according to onwers on the Beechtalk forum.

Mine must be the exception. When my Aspen and A/P got into an argument, my 340 (at the time) and my compass were what I used to shoot an approach and stay shiny side up. Here is a shot of this past weekend after my 340 has been upgraded to the 340A.

Of course none of the 3 altimeters agree, but I have not had the 340A altitude offset adjusted since I got it back.

[Austintatious]

5 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Mine must be the exception. When my Aspen and A/P got into an argument, my 340 (at the time) and my compass were what I used to shoot an approach and stay shiny side up. Here is a shot of this past weekend after my 340 has been upgraded to the 340A.

Of course none of the 3 altimeters agree, but I have not had the 340A altitude offset adjusted since I got it back.

How do you like your engine gauge?  Do you remember what the install cost?  I am looking hard at that.

[smccray]

6 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

How do you like your engine gauge?  Do you remember what the install cost?  I am looking hard at that.

JPI's estimates are pretty accurate.  I did an 830 in my J and I want to say it was 25-30 hrs of labor.  If you can fit it in I would look at a primary (JPI 900) rather than the 830.  I liked the 830 and I found it to be more reliable than the analog gauges that were primary.  However, the little bit of cash I saved on the purchase price was made up in dealing with analog gauges that failed over time.

[Oldguy]

42 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

How do you like your engine gauge?  Do you remember what the install cost?  I am looking hard at that.

Well, I cheated somewhat so my only cost was the replacement display (I think it was ~ $1,300 at the end of 2015). I already had the EDM 800 over on the copilot side, so I bought the panel display and extension harness from JPI and moved it over with my mechanic's oversight and checkoff. The hardest thing was tightening the retaining ring behind the panel for the unit. I think in all it took about 2 hours.

I will say, looking back, I wish I had gone ahead and bitten the bullet and bought the EDM 900, which I just bought a month or so ago from @Jeev. Even though I got a good price from him, it would have saved me the initial 830 cost. Oh, well, someone can learn from what I did.

[Oldguy]

50 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

How do you like your engine gauge?  Do you remember what the install cost?  I am looking hard at that.

Oh, yeah, forgot to say I really like the 830 and have loved flying behind the 900 in a friends 252.

[johnw413]

" If they don't have a backup Attitude indicator they have no idea how far off the indicator is. The Sandia 340A is consistently off according to onwers on the Beechtalk forum. "

  I assume the 340A being "off" is in terms of attitude rather than anything else it displays. Of course, a KI256 could be off as well in terms of roll or pitch. If the 340A is consistently off wouldn't there be some way to adjust it? It seems like most AHRS instruments have adjustments. These are questions I have since most of my instruments are of the steam variety.

 

[FoxMike]

I currently own a 340A and have had 4 quartto's.  The attitude part of the Quartto is not reliable.  The last Quartto I had would handle the turbulence.  Previous models not so much.

I upgraded to the 340A and it failed as soon as I got into some turbulence.  I now have a second one which I have not flown enough to judge.  The 340A is a backup instrument.  I overhauled my KI256 several years ago.  I would not recommend using a 340A as a primary instrument.  I think King will keep the KI300 off the market until the problems are resolved.  I have little confidence in Sandia at this point.  They have stood behind their product so far but sending another unreliable instrument to replace a failed one is not what one would consider good customer support.  I do hope the owner gets it together and solves the problem as he is a nice guy and he seems to be trying.

[Austintatious]

how on earth could the FAA have signed off on an a primary attitude indicator that is not reliable?!?!?

[carqwik]

This thread answers any thoughts I had about a KI300...hello G5...

[Austintatious]

I would love a second G5... however until it interfaces with the autopilot It doesn't seem of much use.  I suppose I could keep the 256 to run the Ap and just add the G5, but at that point I would have 3 ADI's and a TnB....  seems excessive to me and makes for a cluttered panel with fewer options for engine instruments.

[flyingcheesehead]

On 6/3/2019 at 12:39 PM, LANCECASPER said:

I don't think you'll ever see a King KI-300 in the wild. It is based off of the Sandia Quattro 340A which has a horrendous failure rate.

Sandia was down for over a year while the FAA re-certified the 340 and now it's a 340A and from what I hear  lately much worse than the 340.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=151152&hilit=sandia

Pay particular attention to the last post on page 9 of that thread. 

Actually, since BT requires signup to see attachments I think, I'll hope they don't mind me sharing the pic.

The attitude is WAY off. 45 degrees off. And there's no indication at all that it's off. That will kill you.

Then, there's the matter of the KA-310 not being available.

Rumor has it that Garmin will have a way for the G5 to replace the KI-256 by Oshkosh. Crossing my fingers, because right now the options for replacing the 256 really suck - Kick the can down the road with an overhaul, or spend five figures on glass + autopilot adapter (Aspen + EA100 or Garmin G500 TXi + GAD43e). 

Crossing my toes too, because if they do that, it'll make it possible to do my desired G3X+G5+GFC500 upgrade piecemeal. I know that costs more in the end, but as I also have an engine over TBO, so I'm not too keen on dropping $50K into the panel all at once if I can help it.

[johnw413]

  One thing that Garmin seems very good at is making you feel compelled to buy the more expensive option, i.e. to have an AI that talks to the AP you have to get the G500, the G5 is not pricey enough.

  Maybe the FAA guy that signed off on the 340 also did the Boeing MCAS.

  It seems like I will have to go with a used KI256 and hope it works long enough to make an AI replacement easier (and cheaper?) to deal with. Meanwhile the M20J panel doesn't have a lot of empty real estate to add more 3" instruments.

 

[Jeev]

7 hours ago, Oldguy said:

Well, I cheated somewhat so my only cost was the replacement display (I think it was ~ $1,300 at the end of 2015). I already had the EDM 800 over on the copilot side, so I bought the panel display and extension harness from JPI and moved it over with my mechanic's oversight and checkoff. The hardest thing was tightening the retaining ring behind the panel for the unit. I think in all it took about 2 hours.

I will say, looking back, I wish I had gone ahead and bitten the bullet and bought the EDM 900, which I just bought a month or so ago from @Jeev. Even though I got a good price from him, it would have saved me the initial 830 cost. Oh, well, someone can learn from what I did.

Thanks for the mention John!  I always recommend the 900 to my customers first for that reason, it saves in the long run.  I have a lot of customers with 730's or 830's who want to upgrade to the 900.  As you know the 900 is only sold as a full kit and depending on your A&P should be installed with all the new senders and probes even though the CHT & EGT probes are the same.

Thanks again!