Remarkably Bad experience with Avionics shop

[PTK]

13 hours ago, blakealbers said:

Any advice on how to handle the bill appreciated

I would not pay them anymore money. I would document everything in great detail and consult an attorney. Demand they put you plane back like it was before they put their paws on it and refund all you paid. Additionally have your attorney demand they reimburse you a fair per diem rate for grounding and interfering with your use of your plane. Bring Garmin in the conversation as well as this may work in your favor. 

[donkaye]

It seems like a simple issue to just remove one of the G5s, reinstall the KI256 and realign the KC192 to get your KFC 150 back up and running.  Then at a latter date have somone else install the GFC 500 that does work with the G5.  With the G5 already installed, after you sell the KC 192 and its 3 servos, the cost should run around 15K net for the 4 servo model.  Dealing with attorneys is a downer and just prolongs the pain of the mistake.

[steingar]

2 hours ago, orionflt said:

you do not have to know the ins and outs of how to install the equipment, just the knowledge of what works with what and what you want it to do. by talking to several shops and here on Mooneyspace you can set your expectations before dropping off the plane.

The funny thing is I did all that, I really did.  But there were a metric crap ton of stuff I didn't know, stuff that had to be installed and stuff that had to be changed.  In the end it drove costs up to the point where I would have been better off with a 430 WAAS instead of the POS I had installed.  Live and learn.  One thing is for certain, you never know what you don't know.  don't help to have my number one comm crap out in the process.

All in all I am thankful for this thread.  Now I don't feel so bad about the whole thing.  Truth be told, if I can just get my GPS to run the autopilot I think I'm good, and that isn't so bad.  Says me find the best shop you can.  Ours is a small world, you should be able to find out what's what near you.  That said, I just saw someone complaining vitriolic ally about one of the shops I was considering using for my aircraft.  Still, finds  shop with a local reputation for good work.  Even if its more expensive, odds are it'll be cheaper in the long run.

[Bravoman]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

It seems like a simple issue to just remove one of the G5s, reinstall the KI256 and realign the KC192 to get your KFC 150 back up and running.  Then at a latter date have somone else install the GFC 500 that does work with the G5.  With the G5 already installed, after you sell the KC 192 and its 3 servos, the cost should run around 15K net for the 4 servo model.  Dealing with attorneys is a downer and just prolongs the pain of the mistake.

Or go a slightly different route and ditch the HSI and vacuum  system and get an Aspen PFD with an EA 100 which of course works with the KFC 150. The KFC is a beautiful autopilot when working correctly, which to its credit it did for 20 years in my plane until it needed repair.  Now that I have had mine overhauled I don’t think I’d be in rush to get rid of it.

[gsxrpilot]

5 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

Or go a slightly different route and ditch the HSI and vacuum  system and get an Aspen PFD with an EA 100 which of course works with the KFC 150. The KFC is a beautiful autopilot when working correctly, which to its credit it did for 20 years in my plane until it needed repair.  Now that I have had mine overhauled I don’t think I’d be in rush to get rid of it.

Ditto. My Aspen PFD with KFC150 is a rock solid, no vacuum, solution. Fingers crossed, knock on wood, etc... it keeps working.

[donkaye]

29 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

Or go a slightly different route and ditch the HSI and vacuum  system and get an Aspen PFD with an EA 100 which of course works with the KFC 150. The KFC is a beautiful autopilot when working correctly, which to its credit it did for 20 years in my plane until it needed repair.  Now that I have had mine overhauled I don’t think I’d be in rush to get rid of it.

The KFC 150 WAS a good autopilot.  It served me well for 26 years.  I did have to have the pitch servo overhauled twice and the pitch trim servo twice during that time.  While it has some digital electronics in it, it is still basically an analog autopilot.  When the full scale resolution of the WAAS GPSs went down to 2 NM full scale in the enroute mode, the damping, at least on mine, was such that I got wing rock that I never was able to eliminate.  Many times trying  to match products from different manufactures, who want to blame each other for interface issues, doesn't work.  I never was able to find anyone who knew the KFC 150 well enough to solve the issue between my Garmin stuff and the KFC 150.  That will only get worse with regards the KFC 150, as the older techs who knew it well retire.  With reasonably priced new all digital autopilots with modern light weight "smart" servos with brushless DC motors for greater reliability, in the long run, financially you'd be better off getting the new modern autopilot with envelope protection and the LVL button.  I'm still happy to be staying with one manufacturer, who maintains interface compatibility.   I'm really looking forward the my new GFC 500 as much to see if the wing rock is eliminated, as for all the other autopilot upgrades it provides.

[gsxrpilot]

We're all going to very interested in the final installed cost of the GFC500 in your Bravo.

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

We're all going to very interested in the final installed cost of the GFC500 in your Bravo.

I can give you some numbers right now.

If I wanted to wait until September (corrected--December), Chandler Aviation in Chandler AZ bid $24,110 for 4 Servo, G5, and GAD29B.  If I wanted to wait until December, Pacific Coast Avionics in Aurora, Oregon bid $25,600 for the same installation.  Mine was $23,000, but included a trade in of my ESI 500.  On the open market I think I could have gotten at least $4,500 for it, maybe more because it had SVT and NAV on it.  I feel I let it go too cheaply.  I still expect to get about $1,000/servo and $2,500 for the KC 192. That would mean 23,000+4,500-3,000-2,500=22,000 net.  I recognize that I paid several thousand more than the lowest bid to get it done now.  It's supposed to be finished in time to take it to Don Maxwell's MooneyMax early next month.

 

[donkaye]

I'm attaching what a really good bid looks like.  As you can see, the parts cost should be about the same for all bids.  The bid differences I found were in the labor costs.

Estimate_1343_from_EE_Aviation_dba_Chandler_Avionics.pdf

[Niko182]

10 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I'm attaching what a really good bid looks like.  As you can see, the parts cost should be about the same for all bids.  The bid differences I found were in the labor costs.

Estimate_1343_from_EE_Aviation_dba_Chandler_Avionics.pdf 56.63 kB · 6 downloads

how did you get September? you asked for the quote after I let you know what I got and i was booked first week of Jan

[donkaye]

10 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

how did you get September? you asked for the quote after I let you know what I got and i was booked first week of Jan

You know, you're right.  They had a slot in December.  I forgot who quoted September.

[Niko182]

2 minutes ago, donkaye said:

You know, you're right.  They had a slot in December.  I forgot who quoted September.

Okay. that makes a little more sense. not accusing you of anything. was just curious.

[flyboy0681]

25 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I'm attaching what a really good bid looks like.  As you can see, the parts cost should be about the same for all bids.  The bid differences I found were in the labor costs.

Estimate_1343_from_EE_Aviation_dba_Chandler_Avionics.pdf 56.63 kB · 7 downloads

Get the work done in Florida and save the tax!

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Okay. that makes a little more sense. not accusing you of anything. was just curious.

Maybe there was a really nice bottle of Scotch involved 

[quik flite]

Here in the Northeast We are very fortunate to have the best shops in one spot   Weber’s Mooney Service Center. Lancaster Avionics and Sensenich Propeller all at KLNS Lancaster PA    It just doesn’t get any better and they are honest ,fair ,courteous and knowledgeable.    It’s always a pleasure to do business with all of them.   If you are anywhere close I highly recommend it 

No tax in Pa on aircraft work 

Edited May 16, 2019 by quik flite

[carusoam]

Preferred / repeat customer pricing...

And...

Experience buying complex machine controls...

It would be extra helpful to have an electrical engineering degree when spec-ing out such a complex system...

 

In lieu of having such experience, and technical background... a good relationship with the seller / installer is really helpful...

A project of this level of complexity, is as difficult as it gets... the integration between old and new, and the integration between manufacturers makes it an extra challenge...

 

Similar to good mechanics in a good shop... it is the individual doing the work that is best to know...

I have a favorite avionics tech that works in my local Garmin shop... great for asking questions to...  seeing complete modern panels going in, is amazing...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[PTK]

1 hour ago, quik flite said:

Here in the Northeast We are very fortunate to have the best shops in one spot   Weber’s Mooney Service Center. Lancaster Avionics and Sensenich Propeller all at KLNS Lancaster PA    It just doesn’t get any better and they are honest ,fair ,courteous and knowledgeable.    It’s always a pleasure to do business with all of them.   If you are anywhere close I highly recommend it 

No tax in Pa on aircraft work 

Based on my experience: Every time I bid out work to Lancaster avionics always comes back way over the rest. Most recently, remove GTX33R and put in a GTX345R. I had bids ranging from $5800 to $6300. Lancaster avionics came in at $7800! When I asked about ot out of curiosity they said that’s the most it could be and if it ends up less it would be whatever it is! That didn’t sound something I’d be comfortable with. Weber is top notch MSC and I had an excellent experience with Sensenich propeller.

[EricJ]

It seems like Avionics shops in general are a giant sucking sound for cash with not nearly as much to show for it as one would think.

And it doesn't seem to matter how much you know or how much research you did ahead of time, they can find some way to disappoint.

I paid up to go to a "reputable" shop that seemed to understand what I wanted and had a reasonable plan of how to get there.   I even figured that the cost would likely come in about 1.5x the cost estimate (it did) and about 2x the schedule estimate (it was 3x plus a bunch of return trips for warranty work).

In my case a lot of the issues just had to do with a disappointing level of competence and not always doing what they said they were going to do.

They selected (without any input from me and without telling me) a replacement for my dying LC-2 clock from their used stock.   Their replacement clock wasn't fully functional, either, and used 270mA continuous current and they wired it to the ship's battery instead of its standby battery, so if the airplane sat for a week or so (e.g., flying only on the weekends) the ship's battery would be dead when I went to fly.   I had to debug that one myself.   My hangar fairy rehabbed my LC-2 to working condition and they swapped it back in during one of the warranty trips. 

They put in circuit breakers for my new IFD540 that were sized for a 28V system instead of a 14V system.   Everything worked fine except whenever my CFII talked on the radio the breaker would pop.   It would only do it when he talked...didn't do it for me, didn't do it for other CFIs or safety pilots I flew with.   Eventually we figured out it was because he talks WAY too long on the radio so the breaker would only get hot enough and pop when he talked. 

They said they had a lot of experience with Century autopilots and said mine, which had recently gone inop, could be fixed for $3k-$4k, as that's what they were typically seeing.   I figured that was a reasonable amount to pay to nurse it along until I could replace it with one of the new gen autopilots once they got certified for the M20J.   Instead what they did was just shotgun it, take out ALL of the boxes and servos and send it ALL back to Autopilots Central for overhaul.   No diagnostics, nothing, just rip it all out and send it for overhaul.   The bill from AP Central alone was $12k.   Plus it still didn't work and required another round of diagnostics and warranty trips and sending stuff back to AP Central, anyway.  Total waste of money and I would never have approved that action if I knew they were going to do that instead of some basic diagnostics and send off a culprit box or two as they had described. 

They deleted, without any discussion ahead of time, my Nav1/Nav2 switch for the autopilot and refused to replace it.  This was based on their own opinions about safety and that the Avidyne STC did not show the presence of a Nav1/Nav2 switch.   It didn't matter that it may have been OEM equipment or that installing the switch was a minor mod, they refused to replace it.   My main beef was that they waited until my airplane panel and wiring was disassembled in their shop before informing me of this position.

They installed a JPI EDM 900  and wired the CiES senders to avionics master instead of ship's master.   That screws up more stuff than you'd think, and it's pretty noticeable if you even try to test it a little bit.   Somehow they managed to do all of the calibration, etc., without noticing that.

They had initially installed all of the sensors for the EDM 900 on a nice piece of billet aluminum that they attached to the engine mount frame right across the space where the oil filter goes in an and out.   I had to point out that I wouldn't be able to change the filter any more with that in the way, and their initial reaction was to make it easier to remove so that I had to deal with it every oil change.  Eventually we settled on putting the sensors on the firewall.

There were a number of other issues that required multiple trips back for warranty work.   In the end I wound up debugging a lot of it myself and a lot of it I was able to fix myself (software misconfigurations, etc.).    Since I'm an EE with several decades experience in digital wireless comm, this was a bit frustrating as I was paying up to watch people take way longer and spend way more than necessary.   This was a big part of my motivation for going to A&P school, as it was clear that this is pretty typical in the industry and I was just going to be suffering a lot of aggravation and annoyance in the future if I couldn't just do it myself.

So, yeah, the stories are real and, sadly, not at all uncommon.   It can, and probably will, happen to you.   And with the A&P shortage it's probably going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[m20kmooney]

56 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It can, and probably will, happen to you. 

Only if we let them! I think some of us pilot owners have developed a reputation of being too trusting. Some shops take advantage of this.

[EricJ]

23 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

Only if we let them! I think some of us pilot owners have developed a reputation of being too trusting. Some shops take advantage of this.

I went in this one with healthy skepticism, which is SOP for a lot of us.   It doesn't eliminate the possibility of a vendor or shop just pulling surprises on you or making mistakes, which was what led to several of my bigger complaints.

Edited May 17, 2019 by EricJ

[corn_flake]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

This was a big part of my motivation for going to A&P school, as it was clear that this is pretty typical in the industry and I was just going to be suffering a lot of aggravation and annoyance in the future if I couldn't just do it myself.

It didn't take me all but 2 days to realize that I need to seriously consider becoming an A&P if I want to be an aircraft owner and still have a retirement account.  Alternatively, I can jump over to the dark side with the experimental guys...  One thing I do disagree with you is the perceived A&P shortage.  IMHO, there is no shortage of A&P.  There is a shortage of A&P that is willing to do honest work.  

@EricJ By the way, can you share your experience of becoming an A&P?  

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, corn_flake said:

It didn't take me all but 2 days to realize that I need to seriously consider becoming an A&P if I want to be an aircraft owner and still have a retirement account.  Alternatively, I can jump over to the dark side with the experimental guys...  One thing I do disagree with you is the perceived A&P shortage.  IMHO, there is no shortage of A&P.  There is a shortage of A&P that is willing to do honest work.  

@EricJ By the way, can you share your experience of becoming an A&P?  

I ain't one yet...still in school. 

The shortage is real and will continue as a bubble of aging A&Ps retires.   The replacement rate is not keeping up, so a shortage is expected for a while.   The number of recruiters coming to our school and the opportunities are pretty crazy.   For a non-college kid with an interest willing to go to a trade/tech (A&P) school, this is a pretty reliable route to a solid job.

FWIW, the same thing is happening on the pilot side.   The school I'm in also has a flight program and I don't think anybody is leaving without a job.

[Bravoman]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

It seems like Avionics shops in general are a giant sucking sound for cash with not nearly as much to show for it as one would think.

And it doesn't seem to matter how much you know or how much research you did ahead of time, they can find some way to disappoint.

I paid up to go to a "reputable" shop that seemed to understand what I wanted and had a reasonable plan of how to get there.   I even figured that the cost would likely come in about 1.5x the cost estimate (it did) and about 2x the schedule estimate (it was 3x plus a bunch of return trips for warranty work).

In my case a lot of the issues just had to do with a disappointing level of competence and not always doing what they said they were going to do.

They selected (without any input from me and without telling me) a replacement for my dying LC-2 clock from their used stock.   Their replacement clock wasn't fully functional, either, and used 270mA continuous current and they wired it to the ship's battery instead of its standby battery, so if the airplane sat for a week or so (e.g., flying only on the weekends) the ship's battery would be dead when I went to fly.   I had to debug that one myself.   My hangar fairy rehabbed my LC-2 to working condition and they swapped it back in during one of the warranty trips. 

They put in circuit breakers for my new IFD540 that were sized for a 28V system instead of a 14V system.   Everything worked fine except whenever my CFII talked on the radio the breaker would pop.   It would only do it when he talked...didn't do it for me, didn't do it for other CFIs or safety pilots I flew with.   Eventually we figured out it was because he talks WAY too long on the radio so the breaker would only get hot enough and pop when he talked. 

They said they had a lot of experience with Century autopilots and said mine, which had recently gone inop, could be fixed for $3k-$4k, as that's what they were typically seeing.   I figured that was a reasonable amount to pay to nurse it along until I could replace it with one of the new gen autopilots once they got certified for the M20J.   Instead what they did was just shotgun it, take out ALL of the boxes and servos and send it ALL back to Autopilots Central for overhaul.   No diagnostics, nothing, just rip it all out and send it for overhaul.   The bill from AP Central alone was $12k.   Plus it still didn't work and required another round of diagnostics and warranty trips and sending stuff back to AP Central, anyway.  Total waste of money and I would never have approved that action if I knew they were going to do that instead of some basic diagnostics and send off a culprit box or two as they had described. 

They deleted, without any discussion ahead of time, my Nav1/Nav2 switch for the autopilot and refused to replace it.  This was based on their own opinions about safety and that the Avidyne STC did not show the presence of a Nav1/Nav2 switch.   It didn't matter that it may have been OEM equipment or that installing the switch was a minor mod, they refused to replace it.   My main beef was that they waited until my airplane panel and wiring was disassembled in their shop before informing me of this position.

They installed a JPI EDM 900  and wired the CiES senders to avionics master instead of ship's master.   That screws up more stuff than you'd think, and it's pretty noticeable if you even try to test it a little bit.   Somehow they managed to do all of the calibration, etc., without noticing that.

They had initially installed all of the sensors for the EDM 900 on a nice piece of billet aluminum that they attached to the engine mount frame right across the space where the oil filter goes in an and out.   I had to point out that I wouldn't be able to change the filter any more with that in the way, and their initial reaction was to make it easier to remove so that I had to deal with it every oil change.  Eventually we settled on putting the sensors on the firewall.

There were a number of other issues that required multiple trips back for warranty work.   In the end I wound up debugging a lot of it myself and a lot of it I was able to fix myself (software misconfigurations, etc.).    Since I'm an EE with several decades experience in digital wireless comm, this was a bit frustrating as I was paying up to watch people take way longer and spend way more than necessary.   This was a big part of my motivation for going to A&P school, as it was clear that this is pretty typical in the industry and I was just going to be suffering a lot of aggravation and annoyance in the future if I couldn't just do it myself.

So, yeah, the stories are real and, sadly, not at all uncommon.   It can, and probably will, happen to you.   And with the A&P shortage it's probably going to get worse before it gets better.

 

That is a bona fide horror story. Can’t imagine what I would do since I don’t have your technical background. Sorry that you went through that.

[LANCECASPER]

On 5/15/2019 at 8:16 PM, blakealbers said:

 

Hey folks, hope no one has any advice on how to handle this because I hope none of you have gone through it.

 

Airplane has been down since February, went in for a landing light switch and came out with a nightmare.

 

Should have thrown a red flag when they charged $550 in labor for the landing light switch install.

 

They offered to move up my shop date for ADSB install GTX345 and I took them up on it. On the flight down my old king digital HSI was blurring in and out of focus. I figured I would do the g5 with GadB and magnetometer as a stepping stone to doing the G500 Txi down the road and I could have more confidence in pursuing instrument rating without wondering when the old digital HSI was going to blink out of existence.

 

They seemed to think this was a non issue and alotted for about a week for the initial install.

 

They then quoted me with dual G5’s to replace the KI 256 and I took them up on it, which was unfortunate since had I spent another 10 minutes on the forum I may have discovered on my own that this wasn’t going to work.

 

 

They proceeded to promise week after week the airplane would be done.

 

Finally we go for a test flight yesterday (long awaited since I landed in February)

 

Of corse most of you probably already have guessed, the KFC150 needs the KI256. So now I don’t have an autopilot that functions.

 

They have offered to eat the labor on putting the old unit back in and buying the G5 back

(Which I cant believe even needed said)

 

But where do we go from here? They get it back functioning but all of this has been borderline criminal with the lack of knowledge of anything except how to make a big bill get bigger. I’ve already paid $8200 which would be half of the parts only with ADSB equipment and HSI . Any advice on how to handle the bill appreciated

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

You might just consider taking the G5 that was going to be your attitude indicator and putting it in the turn coordinator spot for a good backup device since all of the wiring is there already

[blakealbers]

Ok, flew today KI256 back in place... now LH alt light on, probably a separate issue but yet another squawk they “fixed”
With new voltage regulator that was not an issue when I dropped the plane off (in February)...but I digress.

KFC150 tracked GPSS, caught preselected altitudes so they didn’t break that functionality and we gained GPSS...and the airplane didn’t try to do a barrel roll when we clicked the auto pilot on this time which was a win compared to our last flight.


Now Approach mode doesn’t work. Tracking RNAV 32 in @ KLNK in. Switched from heading to approach mode after established and plane just drifted left of course every time we tried. No vertical tracking either.

GPSS was switched off. Any thoughts appreciated.


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