midlifeflyer Posted March 20, 2019 Report Share Posted March 20, 2019 5 hours ago, Shadrach said: Yes and no. As a safety pilot, I’ve watched several instrument students pay too much attention to georeferenced approach plates. They end up chasing an icon as they zig zag down the localizer rather than find the appropriate correction and hold. Instrument students have always found something to chase. That's what overcorrecting comes down to and it's probably the single most common student error. Might be the most common pilot error, period. Both instrument and vusual - watch pilots add 8" of MP to correct being slightly low after turning on final. Some get weaned away from it. Some never manage to. i actually see quite a bit of the opposite - the use of the enhanced situational awareness provided by georeferenced approach plates (and certified displays) to realize they are not that far off and can make very small corrections. In the right direction, too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted March 20, 2019 Report Share Posted March 20, 2019 9 hours ago, Shadrach said: Yes and no. As a safety pilot, I’ve watched several instrument students pay too much attention to georeferenced approach plates. They end up chasing an icon as they zig zag down the localizer rather than find the appropriate correction and hold. I’m sure he was watching the instrument display more than the map. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted March 20, 2019 Report Share Posted March 20, 2019 3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said: i actually see quite a bit of the opposite - the use of the enhanced situational awareness provided by georeferenced approach plates (and certified displays) to realize they are not that far off and can make very small corrections. In the right direction, too. I think the geo-referenced plate on the yoke actually sped up my development in just the way you describe. However I do feel totally naked without it now, so it probably cuts both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcopolo Posted March 20, 2019 Report Share Posted March 20, 2019 I spent the better part of the day yesterday on the crash site of this M20C, I have seen a few crash sites, but I have never seen one like this. I am still trying to work out in my mind how the airplane and associated damage ended up the way it did. As can be expected, It hit hard, very hard! There was no sign of a back-up AI in or attached to the panel, that I could see (a TC yes). There was an Ipad cover (never saw the Ipad) at the site but I cannot say if it was for flying or for work (he was returning home from work, a regular commute made between Knoxville and Aiken). If any of the info above in this thread helps us to practice something that we haven't done for a long time (partial panel) or gets us to install or use something as a backup then this thread could definitely save a life. I cannot speak to what this pilot was comfortable with, his proficiency, or his thought process, or what he was experiencing with lighting, weather, winds, turbulence, but I can say that there was simply nothing recognizable as being a Mooney at this crash site, nothing! The media coverage reported that the pilot informed ATC that he had lost his reference to Attitude shortly before impact so he had the first step in the process covered, he recognized the failure (I assume) but from there it went sideways for him unfortunately. I'm a relatively fresh instrument pilot (18 months) and I can say that I am used to the AI being covered up and I still understand using the other instruments to validate the AI's data and also using them if the AI is deemed failed (this backup we all have, hopefully). I could go along fine for a long time without having to see something like this again, ever! Be safe folks... Ron 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midlifeflyer Posted March 20, 2019 Report Share Posted March 20, 2019 7 hours ago, DXB said: I think the geo-referenced plate on the yoke actually sped up my development in just the way you describe. However I do feel totally naked without it now, so it probably cuts both ways. In a sense, that's the way it goes. Those pilots who started on four-course radio range but moved to NDB and VOR probably felt naked when their ADF or VOR received went bad.Pilots used to an HSI might feel at a bit of a loss hopping into an airplane with "only" a DG. But "naked" does not have to mean "afraid." or "incompetent." That's why, although we do love the modern tools and the extra situational awareness they give us, and we have them backed up in multiple ways, we still need to practice "old school" once in a while. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted March 20, 2019 Report Share Posted March 20, 2019 To clarify, I was anthropomorphizing the somewhat outmoded instrument, not criticizing the hardworking folks at Aspen As Paul says above, it was just the technology at the time. Aspen was an early adopter of this technology going for a low cost glass retrofit and a single integrated ADHRS chip was a big part of what enabled there success. But trade off’s exist with all engineering choices and the chosen chip needed all inputs to get any solution. Garmin came later, as I recall, and used a more sophisticated hardware solution that enable them to code for partial failures unlike the early single chip solution. Hence were we are now with Aspens latest offering.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted March 20, 2019 Report Share Posted March 20, 2019 9 hours ago, DXB said: I think the geo-referenced plate on the yoke actually sped up my development in just the way you describe. However I do feel totally naked without it now, so it probably cuts both ways. This is the crux of it. Great situational awareness, but take it away and... I think it's good to be practiced at fine tuning corrections using needle and heading. I also think the folks I am referring to would find the "zone of confusion" uncomfortable without geo referenced plates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0TreeLemur Posted March 20, 2019 Report Share Posted March 20, 2019 23 hours ago, DXB said: Scant logic, just the certification issues people note. I find it intolerable that my Stratus will give me good enough attitude info to stay alive without any external inputs, but the Aspen can't be bothered. Your AI and HSI both become a big red Xs if you lose airspeed. I think @Fred₂O lost his airspeed recently inside the final fix in IMC not because of icing but possibly some mud dauber goo wedged deep inside the pitot tube swelling to obstruct the drain hole in rain. I really don't want the shock of seeing the 2 Xs under those circumstances, no matter how robust my backup systems are. The early Max upgrade reservation discount (2000+ install from my dealer) ends this month. I jumped at the chance. Follow up: Investigation found no signs of mud in pitot tube. Drain is open. Whatever it was is gone now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted March 20, 2019 Report Share Posted March 20, 2019 This is the crux of it. Great situational awareness, but take it away and... I think it's good to be practiced at fine tuning corrections using needle and heading. I also think the folks I am referring to would find the "zone of confusion" uncomfortable without geo referenced plates. The good news is that with modern WAAS all of that goes away with ground track information. Just visually tracking TRK vs DTK enables you to keep the needles centered before you’ll see the CDI being displaced. Makes Partial Panel easy as well - and much safer. No more zone of confusion or relying solely on compass for heading. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, kortopates said: The good news is that with modern WAAS all of that goes away with ground track information. Just visually tracking TRK vs DTK enables you to keep the needles centered before you’ll see the CDI being displaced. Makes Partial Panel easy as well - and much safer. No more zone of confusion or relying solely on compass for heading. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Agreed. I hope the airmanship needed to track a fix doesn’t go with it. Probably doesn’t matter. Such is progress I suppose. Edited March 21, 2019 by Shadrach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 15 hours ago, kortopates said: The good news is that with modern WAAS all of that goes away with ground track information. Just visually tracking TRK vs DTK enables you to keep the needles centered before you’ll see the CDI being displaced. Makes Partial Panel easy as well - and much safer. No more zone of confusion or relying solely on compass for heading. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yeah I should definitely look at TRK vs DTK more during approaches. Seems like a great way to keep the brain primed for partial panel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMan Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 On 3/15/2019 at 4:04 PM, Hyett6420 said: Could someone please have a go at wate and get this fixed. They just dont want to understand they cant collect personal data, so they have blocked access to their site. So annoying. Your leaders know what's best for you. I can't help but think that this effort sounds good in that people can request their online records destroyed and deleted, but it's the actions of many European governments, in living memory, that have erased all history of individuals existence after exterminating them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 Use caution with non-aviation thread creep... it can get the thread shut down pretty quickly... -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMan Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, tigers2007 said: This is some serious thread creep but did you know that foreign-born individuals who arrive in the U.S.A. as refugees can get official birth certificates issued by U.S. states that show a domestic city of birth after they acquire U.S. Citizenship? Yes this is fact; I've seen it with my own eyes. This is not done with the intention to insult the sovereignty of the United States but to protect the individuals should they travel abroad and for a few other reasons. I think its ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Like Hawaii? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigers2007 Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, FloridaMan said: Like Hawaii? Lol know it would go there but I wasn't going to push it... Anyways, I listened to DXB's post showing the Powerless over Paris video by AOPA. Who would have thought that in 2017 that some rich doctor would be flying hard IFR at night and not have any gadgetry (iPad, Foreflight, etc.) in the cockpit besides a red LED headlamp. Me - I have all the gadgetry but NO headlamp. I'm buying one today. He makes a good point that all of the backup crap (like his headlamp) needs to be available immediately. Its common to ready internet forum chatter about how "oh i have my iphone as a backup if my xxxxx fails" etc. That crap needs to be booted up, calibrated, and running at the exact moment of failure! I power up my Dynon D2 and keep it powered on until I'm back on the ground. Even if the wx is clear its nice to have it hot and ready in the event of an unlikely emergency. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 Good point, @tigers2007. Sometimes my tablet ends up in the baggage area . . . But usually if I know there will be weather enroute or at my destination, I'm more careful to lay everything out and have it ready before departure, just like I spend extra time looking / watching weather and pre-briefing expected approaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigers2007 Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 22 minutes ago, Hank said: Good point, @tigers2007. Sometimes my tablet ends up in the baggage area . . . But usually if I know there will be weather enroute or at my destination, I'm more careful to lay everything out and have it ready before departure, just like I spend extra time looking / watching weather and pre-briefing expected approaches. Get a Dynon D3 for about $900. eBay was offering a 8% "ebay Bucks" rebate that ended last Sunday night I believe and I think it was Chief Aircraft has them listed on their with free shipping. I'm an idiot and should have bought it. The D2's are going for $550 on eBay. So about $250 more after selling my D2 I could have had the fancier D3 that has a nicer display and I believe a faster processor (and synthetic vision...). Makes me wonder what the outcome would be for so many pilots if they had a backup AI like the Dynon D series operating and in visual range when their critical failure occurred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydvrboy Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 2 hours ago, tigers2007 said: Its common to ready internet forum chatter about how "oh i have my iphone as a backup if my xxxxx fails" etc. I installed a magnetic mount on my panel for my iphone and have it there while I fly. So in a way, you could say my backup is panel mounted. I don't always have it on and ready to go with the gyroscopic attitude indicator, but I will certainly do that if flying at night or if I may encounter reduced visibility. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
81X Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, tigers2007 said: Get a Dynon D3 for about $900. eBay was offering a 8% "ebay Bucks" rebate that ended last Sunday night I believe and I think it was Chief Aircraft has them listed on their with free shipping. I'm an idiot and should have bought it. The D2's are going for $550 on eBay. So about $250 more after selling my D2 I could have had the fancier D3 that has a nicer display and I believe a faster processor (and synthetic vision...). Makes me wonder what the outcome would be for so many pilots if they had a backup AI like the Dynon D series operating and in visual range when their critical failure occurred. I bought a Dynon D1 after my RC Allen electric AH crapped out. It was cheaper to buy the more reliable “portable” D1 than overhaul the flaky TSO’d AH. I really liked that unit a LOT for the Cherokee I owned at the Time; I did tons of IFR at the time. Edited March 22, 2019 by 81X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigers2007 Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 another thing in that AOPA video that made me chuckle was how he lost power to his ELECTRIC flaps. I think they left out the part of the movie where his conscious was saying “I told you dummy to buy the Mooney”. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 6:06 PM, carusoam said: It is a real good idea to have your AHARS device solidly attached to the plane... If it were to come loose in turbulence, using it for a reference would be an extra challenge... Some portable devices are better than others... The portable Dynons can be clipped into the panel... When you have switched to Plan B: in IMC... is your life depending on a piece of Velcro, plastic clips, or certified GPS source/ahars mounted to the plane? That is Something to consider, if you haven’t already... I love turbulence (and white water canoeing), except when flying partial panel... the remaining instruments better be working as expected... When things aren’t working as expected, in a high cognitive work load environment... brain overload won’t ever be appreciated... My M20C with no wing leveler, would enter a spiral within a minute of not having an attitude reference... and get steeper from there... The direction of the spiral depended on fuel and people load.... The O won’t be any better... I just didn’t ever let it fly free to see what it would do... Briefly, if Plan B involves using a portable AHARS device... get it firmly attached the best you can.... Something important will depend on it. PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or CFI... Best regards, -a- Absolutely agree! I have a 345 in the Mooney and Stratus ESG with the Stratus 3i and the AHRS sensor in the Cessna. I shudder to think of a time when I have to resort to Foreflight Synthetic Vision as a last resort, but if I do, I have a decent chance that it will work properly. Of course if you need it, the satellites might be obscured. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, MBDiagMan said: Absolutely agree! I have a 345 in the Mooney and Stratus ESG with the Stratus 3i and the AHRS sensor in the Cessna. I shudder to think of a time when I have to resort to Foreflight Synthetic Vision as a last resort, but if I do, I have a decent chance that it will work properly. Of course if you need it, the satellites might be obscured. Does the AHRS require satellite reception for attitude information? I wonder what that kind of failure would look like. Edited March 22, 2019 by Shadrach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 I have not, however I do use an Ipad mounted to the copilot's yoke for maps, frequencies, etc... My main point is that at the onset of an emergency, I want to be on a known to be reliable set of back-up instruments as my now primary flight instruments. That being said, the Ipad can be used for situational awareness like I use it now. I just want to have a fully operational, tradition AI up and running and not potentially fumbling with non-traditional devices. Looking rgt, down, etc may also be vertigo inducing. Not a good time to get into an unusual attitude. John Breda John,Maybe you should start using the iPad as the backup to your back ups when they become primary. There is no fumbling around setting the iPad up as an AHARS. It’s a single tab at the top of the page. Easily pressed before you enter IMC if you have your iPad right on your yoke it seems pretty reasonable to use all the tools in your tool box. And if you don’t want to use it because you don’t know how you should take some flight time to get used to it... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 9 hours ago, Shadrach said: Does the AHRS require satellite reception for attitude information? I wonder what that kind of failure would look like. I don’t think the AHRS needs satellite access, but if you don’t have GPS data yo won’t see the Synfhetic Vision and of course your position on the plate or chart. Sorry I was not more clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 Before I even planned on getting my Instrument Rating I was working on upgrades allowing me to remove my vacuum system. Luckily my AP didn’t need it. The upgrade I did last summer to the plane made my plane all electric. And now Being a newly IR pilot I’m even happier I started on that journey for my plane. I have four options for synthetic vision and five places I have battery back up AHARS. I have ForeFlight loaded on both my iPads and my iPhone. Both iPads have xnaut cooling mounts. One iPad has ForeFlight running and the other iPad has an Avidyne app running while flying. The tab for ForeFlight it right at the top and requires no set up. Press and down it drops, it gives you an HSI needle for your track. When I fly at night or IMC I will start out the flight with it running. I agree in a panic it’s not the best time to try to mess with it. But the FAA doesn’t say it can’t be running till you are in an emergency. Prep the flight from the ground the best you can. I agree with Shardrach and gsxrpilot the iPad is a viable back up and I train using it. If I die in an emergency I want it to be because I ran out of tools in my tool box not because I didn’t know how to use one. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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