New Avionic

[mjc]

I have a /U Mooney. In it are two KX-155s, once of which even has a glidesloe receiver, a Mode C transponder, and well, that's it. So many approaches require GPS or DME, and even some ILS, LOC, and VOR ones are marked as requiring "ADF or DME." I can't afford a fancy panel-mount GPS and since I want to one day send my child to college, maybe I never will. Even if I do, keeping the database up to date is several hundred dollars a year. So the thought occurred to me that maybe I ought to get a DME, which I can get installed for under $2500, and never have to update it. The downside is that it isn't like they're adding VORs, and in fact I imagine they're probably going to start not fixing them when they break. I couldn't make up my mind, so I figure I'll start a poll.

[mjc]

By the way, if you select "None of the above" and don't post a reply, I'll assume you want me to just save it and send my daughter to a private college instead of a UC.

[jax88]

Teach your daughter the value of hard work by making her pay her own way through college and spend the college fund on a full glass panel.

[N9937c]

A kns 80 has all but the gps and they work great and are reliable

larry

[bnicolette]

I would also suggest a KNS 80. They can be had for under $500 at the moment. That way you have a LOC/GS/DME/ and best of all RNAV which enables you to file direct within reason. 

[OR75]

much will depends on where you want to install the receiver and how much space you have there.

The KNS 80 is great but uses a lot of space. You may want to consider a KLN-89B or 90B (about 1500 or less used). Those are IFR units. The installation cost will to a large extent determine the total cost. Could end up staying under 2500 if you can find a shop willing to install for less than 1 amu

Wonder why many chose to stay with antique avionics in the panel and handheld 

[bnicolette]

I certainly don't think these avionics would be considered antique?  I can fly any mission that somebody with a brand spanking new GTN can fly so long as the airport has something other than a GPS approach (given low IMC at the arrival airport) and also fly that mission just as safe.  I have beautiful color maps and approach plates right on my $800 iPad with geo referencing, weather on my 396, and direct filing capability with my KNS 80.  Also the only subscription I need to keep up to date is my $150 annual subscription with Foreflight.  

I think most of us that keep the "older" avionics do so because were on a budget and can't justify the huge cost for no more utility out of the airplane. 

[ELT]

I have been soul and wallet searching on this same subject.  I have a KNS 80, 2 digital coms, PC, transcoder, audio panel, 496 and iPad.  I now fly only light IFR and only with my co-pilot wife to keep me in line.  I do 6 month checks.  Do I need an expensive GPS?  I reasoned not.  I am adding a KR86 adf in the place of the defuct loran to make more legal approaches open to me.  It is a choice of money and type of flying you do.  If you are on a schedule and fly hard IFR you need aleast a 430W.

[PTK]

Michael, I think you are making some assumptions that I probably wouldn't have made or at least thought things differently. Of course please forgive me because I don't know your situation or your airplane.  

You are assuming that the cost of the upgrade is money you will never see again.  If you analyze an avionics upgrade very carefully I think you will recoupe a very large portion if not all of the cost when you sell the airplane.  By carefully I mean look at the equipment you have and judiciously only add what you really need.  For example I don't agree when people jump on the bandwagon that happens to be passing by at any given point in time and go crazy taking out perfectly good equipment because someone sold them on some glass.  You need to control your upgrade and don't relinquish this control to some "expert".

Also carefully analyzing and actually shopping around for installations.  I can tell you that national avionics shops that advertise themselves as the prime dealers for Garmin, for example, are WAY OVERPRICED. You can do A LOT better if you search.

So by installing only what you need and shopping around you can have your avionics, college for your daughter and recoupe the cost when you sell. If you don't sell you will enjoy it for a long time.

I did an upgrade very recently to a GTN750, GMA35 and GTX33. I took out KNS80, ADF and some other things.  I sold the ADF before I even picked up the airplane!  Cleaned up panel very nicely and did not break the bank.  

 

 

[Ksaunders]

I put a KLN89B in my plane that cost $1,650 + install.  Unit does all you want for IFR......HOWEVER.  Non-Precision VOR and DME approaches are not included in the database unless there is a published GPS overlay for them.  Care to guess how many of those exist in the world?? AND.....Data card exchange every 28 days for a year $775/year.  Want to do the PC Cable direct download instead of the card exchange?  $125 for the cord, $50 for the pin adapter, and $175 to upgrade your KLN 89B internal software (and it takes an estimated 6 weeks to send it out to the shop for them to update).  Just had the internal battery die after 1 year of use.  (The manual says they last between 3 and 20 years).  My bill for that battery replacement last week was $119. 

I have the IFR certified KLN 89B + a Garmin 295 and a Bendix/King AV8TOR (SWEET UNIT) in my plane.  The AV8TOR does a WONDERFUL JOB for situational awareness following along with the KLN 89B + it give you terrain awareness and XM Datalink Weather.  It also has a neat little mini-glass panel feature that is fun to play with.  I installed the entire AV8TOR myself (15 minutes) and it cost me $1,300 total.  The only install work you do is mount a receiver for the datalink weather. 

P.S.    For Sale:  One KLN 89B PC Cable + adaptor for your laptop.  $800. 

 

    

[John Pleisse]

Mike,

I bought fancy glass everything and the one thing I kept was my DME. I like your logic.

Allsmiles, I like your post about valuation. We all have different commitments and value systems. I would add that for many, an aircraft is a business expense, so purchases are deductable and make good financial sense. In most cases, spending personal family budget for upkeep and upgrades presents a different set of values that frankly, I respect.

[jetdriven]

we just repaired ourt KN-61 DME and added a KLN-89B (VFR) and an aera 500 in an airgizmos dock.  Great setup.

[FlyDave]

I'd like to make a few additional pros/cons of an IFR GPS:

1. 
   
2. Pro: Think about when you went looking for an airplane and how much more appealing something with a GPS was. You may not recoup all you spend but it will certainly make your plane more appealing during resale than not having an IFR certified GPS.
   
3. Pro: Flying IFR with a GPS is really a pleasure! You can enter an entire flight plan and won't have to keep dialing in the next VOR. Also, you no longer have to ID a VOR if you use GPS. Easier IFR = safer flight
   
4. Pro: Intersections are a no brainer. Easier IFR = safer flight
   
5. Pro: Getting a "direct to" clearance from 200+ miles away is quite nice. It also saves time and fuel. Easier IFR = safer flight
   
6. Con: Learning the GPS takes a bit of time and, if you don't REALLY know how to use it, an IFR flight is NOT the place to learn.
   

My 430 is not WAAS so I can't fly the LPV approaches. But, depending on what airports you fly into, LPV approaches could be a very nice benefit as well.

Best of luck in your decision.

[danb35]

Allsmiles, by most accounts, you're lucky to see half of your avionics upgrade dollars back in resale value.  To look at a very common (until a few months ago) upgrade, consider the Garmin 430W.  Vref indicates that it adds $5k to the value of a '67 F; Jimmy Garrison's article in last month's MAPA Log suggests $7500.  I may well have overpaid to have mine installed, but I paid just under twice Jimmy's estimate, and I suspect he's being optimistic.

Sure, you're going to get something back for your upgrades, but I don't think it's reasonable at all to expect you'll get 75+% of your cost back in resale.  Of course, you're (presumably) getting those upgrades because you want to use them for whatever reason, not just for the sake of bumping up the value of the plane...

[Ron McBride]

Michael     I have a 69 F. I put in the 430W several years ago. I love it.  I fly VFR mainly. Fortunately I don't have the low ceilings that you will have at RHV.  I would suggest the 430W and use the value up in flying the plane.

If you would like, we can get together and you can fly mine. This may help in your decision.   If you do not put the 430W in, then the DME.    The Early King GPS that are mentioned, I do not have any experience with those.

Ron    KMPI

[John Pleisse]

Rationalizing upgrades based on steady increasing valuation is no longer a valid method. Gone are the boom days of the 90's. Now one must consider true use and utility to realize the benifit of upgrading. Nobody ever seems to quantify utility and safety, just expendature vs. resale. Once reasonable, this is now misguided.

[eldeano]

I think you need to consider your mission.  If there is an airport you want to get into that only has a gps approach, which is usually not the case, then you should consider that.  Otherwise, just get the DME. You can use the ipad for unofficial situational awareness, geo-referenced approach plates are now available and still less then half of what a panel GPS data upgrade costs. Also flying approaches with the panel GPS can be complicated if you don't do it all the time, especially the KLNs.

 

In my opinion it is best to stick to what you know, and don't spend money on something you don't need that may force you to fly less.

[mjc]

These are all really great responses. Thank you all!

A couple of posts noted that upgrades should be tied to the mission. On that, I primarily fly VFR, and not for business. I am IFR rated, current, and proficient, and do not hesitate to use the rating to get up or down through a stratus deck. Long hours of hard IFR are really not my thing. I do have a portable GPS.

My home airport has a few approaches, all of which are GPS-only. San Jose is 5 miles away, and has an ILS. So does Moffett, but I cannot land there because I am not a Google founder. Palo Alto has nothing I can use (same goes for San Carlos and Half Moon Bay and South County and Hollister, all pretty much GPS only). Hayward as a VOR-A approach, but I'm not really a fan of it. Livermore also has an ILS, but I am not legally able to use it in IMC as it requires "ADF or DME." Hmm... listing all the airports around like that kind of pushes the needle toward waiting and getting GPS.

The KNS-80 is tempting. I have the room for it, and it would give me three nav radios (and two glideslopes). But when I do get GPS (which, I have a feeling that with ADS-B coming, will have to happen eventually), the KNS-80 will have to go. So even if it costs the same as installing a DME-only, it is a waste. I could keep a much smaller DME-only unit, which would be useful for those times when I let the GPS database expire.

As for an older GPS like a KLN89B or Garmin GPS155XL, I've often thought about going that way. The trouble is, for an installation that's certified for IFR approaches, it costs just as much as installing a GNS 430W. More, even, since many need a separate annunciator. I guess one answer might be to get one for enroute and terminal only. The other issue with the older GPSes is that manufacturers seem to be running low on parts and dropping support for them. Fortunately, the 430 was produced in such volume that it is likely to be supported by someone for a long time. Are any of the others in that situation, in effect, "too big to fail?"

[PTK]

Quote Danb35

Allsmiles, by most accounts, you're lucky to see half of your avionics upgrade dollars back in resale value.  To look at a very common (until a few months ago) upgrade, consider the Garmin 430W.  Vref indicates that it adds $5k to the value of a '67 F; Jimmy Garrison's article in last month's MAPA Log suggests $7500.  I may well have overpaid to have mine installed, but I paid just under twice Jimmy's estimate, and I suspect he's being optimistic.

Sure, you're going to get something back for your upgrades, but I don't think it's reasonable at all to expect you'll get 75+% of your cost back in resale.  Of course, you're (presumably) getting those upgrades because you want to use them for whatever reason, not just for the sake of bumping up the value of the plane...

 

 

Danb35 this is exactly my point.  What you recoupe back in terms of value directly depends on what you put out for the upgrade.  If you paid the insane 30K for a GTN 750, GMA 35 and GTX 33 (as an example because this equipment I'm familiar with because I just had it done) then no you will not get nearly as much back.  If you paid normal costs you will get more value back.  What I was saying to Michael is simply shop around.  You will be surprised that you don't have to settle for something you may not want.  The best deals need to be researched.  Everyone assumes the costs advertised around by "bigger"  national avionics shops are the norm. They are NOT folks!!  The less you pay for an upgrade the more you'll recoup at resale. Does this make sense?

[PTK]

If you PM me I'll tell you more info on what I paid and where.