KLRDMD Posted December 20, 2018 Report Posted December 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, carusoam said: Ken, Something fun to have around the house? Low and slow? Or an efficient machine for lightly loaded travel? Full on aerobatic monster? Something more appropriate for my current flying needs. The same reason I've bought every other airplane Once it is in my hangar, I'll post photos, etc. Nothing special, just right for my current needs. 3 Quote
carusoam Posted December 20, 2018 Report Posted December 20, 2018 Gatlin, Review Which Engine you get with each of the K options... From Continental TSIO360 up to a TSIO520... When it comes to pricing, know which version of the engine is being offered... As Ken just mentioned the LB vs. the GB. The Rocket with a TSIO520 is pretty cool... just ask Erik! Best regards, -a- Quote
Gatlin Gun Posted December 20, 2018 Author Report Posted December 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, carusoam said: Review Which Engine you get with each of the K options... 231 LB vs. 262 360-MB...no brainer, right??? Quote
KLRDMD Posted December 20, 2018 Report Posted December 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Gatlin Gun said: 231 LB vs. 262 360-MB...no brainer, right??? To me, it depends on the price. The -MB is a better engine. No argument. How much are you willing to pay for that ? $5,000 ? $50,000 ? Quote
Pritch Posted December 20, 2018 Report Posted December 20, 2018 Here is a screenshot from Flightaware after my annual to flight test her, with just me and full fuel. Not an accurate test, just messing around so take it for what it's worth. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted December 20, 2018 Report Posted December 20, 2018 FlightAware thinks Pritch has the Seaplane STC... with the landing in the bay! Geat climb rate... to 7k’ Great speed... once there! Best regards, -a- Quote
KLRDMD Posted December 20, 2018 Report Posted December 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, Pritch said: Here is a screenshot from Flightaware after my annual to flight test her, with just me and full fuel. Not an accurate test, just messing around so take it for what it's worth. A good friend of mine used to live in Eureka. I've been there many times. Quote
carusoam Posted December 20, 2018 Report Posted December 20, 2018 20 minutes ago, Gatlin Gun said: 231 LB vs. 262 360-MB...no brainer, right??? Many of the Ks have been upgraded at OH... The upgrade path may be important to a person that is building a Forever-plane... You never know how far you may go upgrading a few things over the years. Time goes by at Mooney speeds... Best regards, -a- 1 1 Quote
231MJ Posted December 20, 2018 Report Posted December 20, 2018 I'm one of the fortunate few to own a 262 and it's been a great traveling airplane. The basic benefit is going high and fast with long legs and low fuel consumption. The 231 has similar features but in a 231 you tend to fly the engine and in a 252/262 you fly the airplane. In IFR, this makes a big difference. I have been out of the airplane market for a long time and don't know the price difference between a 231 and a 262 but I think a reasonable premium for the 262 is well worth it. If you can afford a 252 by all means get it - it's a better airplane! I think most 262s came with dual alternators, back-up vacuum system, big O2 tank, and long-range fuel tanks so safety/reliability and range were key considerations when Coy developed the 262. Because the 262 is a 231 skeleton, the plane looks it's age and it takes $$$$ to improve on the basic 231 airframe (it will never have the inner gear doors of a 252). I would much rather have a 252 but I have other needs for my disposable income so I'm going to stick with my 262 and it probably is my "for ever" plane. This summer it's getting an avionics make-over and then a new interior some time in the future. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. 5 1 Quote
M016576 Posted December 21, 2018 Report Posted December 21, 2018 23 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: I flew to and from CO several times in my M20C... and then decided enough with that and traded it for a 252. Once you fly a turbo in the mountains, you won't want anything else. Or a turbine 1 1 Quote
Gatlin Gun Posted December 21, 2018 Author Report Posted December 21, 2018 Ok...don't mean to keep asking dumb questions, but I know I have a lot to learn about Mooneys. How can a non-turbo charged engine (aka a M20M TLS motor) have 270 horse when the 231 turbos have 210??? Quote
Andy95W Posted December 21, 2018 Report Posted December 21, 2018 The M20M uses the Lycoming TIO-540 (turbocharged). The M20K uses the Continental TSIO-360 (also turbo-charged). The M20M has a lot more displacement and burns a crapload more fuel to get the 270 hp. The M20R Oovation is not turbocharged, it uses the Continental IO-550 and produces 280-310 horsepower. Again, it has a lot more displacement and burns a lot more fuel. At altitude, it produces a lot less horsepower than at sea level, of course. 3 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted December 21, 2018 Report Posted December 21, 2018 The real purpose of the turbo's with our airplane engines, are to maintain the horsepower produced at high altitudes. You could imagine that a non-turbo piston engine might only make full horsepower at sea level. As the engine goes to higher altitudes, the O2 in the air is reduced and therefore we reduce mixture (fuel) to maintain the proper mixture for combustion. This results in a reduction of horsepower as well. For example, an IO360 makes 200 hp on the ground. At 10,000 ft. it's only making maybe 60% of that power. Adding a turbo to the engine, force feeds air into the cylinders and can therefore maintain the same rated HP even as the plane climbs. So for example, a TSIO360 makes 210hp on the ground and because of the turbo, will make the same 210hp at 10,000 ft. So as you might imagine, the higher the altitude, the greater the altitude, the more difference the turbo makes. There's a great article somewhere that compares the performance of the non-turbo J with the turbo K and showed that up to almost 10,000 ft, the J was the more efficient airplane. But as you get above 10,000, the turbo really starts to make a difference. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted December 21, 2018 Report Posted December 21, 2018 On 12/19/2018 at 11:29 PM, carusoam said: Gatlin, Review Which Engine you get with each of the K options... From Continental TSIO360 up to a TSIO520... When it comes to pricing, know which version of the engine is being offered... As Ken just mentioned the LB vs. the GB. The Rocket with a TSIO520 is pretty cool... just ask Erik! Best regards, -a- see the TSIO... Turbo/super charged... (compared to NA, or TN) Injection Opposed cylinders (nobody goes Radial anymore...) See The Numbers.... 360 520 540 550 Cubic inches... Want to do some fun math... Ask Alexa how many liters are in 550 cubic inches... She says 9... Remember when Vanilla Ice was singing about driving around Florida in his 5.0..? That was a lot of displacement in the mid 80s... (V-ice would love a TN 9.0!) Now for more fun... F=ma. Force, mass and acceleration are related... The Mustang weighs 3650 pounds A Mooney weighs in about half that... Imagine the acceleration and climb you can get with a turbocharged Mooney.... Hmmmm.... cutting the mass in half, keeping the HP the same, doubles the acceleration....? For additional fun... Wind resistance is a drag... Taking a Mooney to 20k’ is less than half a drag.... Unfortunately, a normally aspirated Engine can’t continue to produce a high amount of power with the lower MP available at 20k’.... Hence the value of the TSIO360 with a Merlyn controller, and an intercooler become very interesting.... high output combined with low drag.... Stunning! Are you a motor-head, just not familiar with all these specific details? Or are these details all new, haven’t become a motor head yet? Keep in mind... having a complex and powerful plane takes a lot of experience to master... The more masterful you are, the better off you will be... A normal part of the ownership experience is getting Transition Training to go with your new steed... You might consider getting some transition training prior to buying your new steed... There are quite a few Mooney specific CFIIs around that will train in their Mooney... find one with the motor you want and go for a lesson... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote
KLRDMD Posted December 21, 2018 Report Posted December 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, carusoam said: There are quite a few Mooney specific CFIIs around that will train in their Mooney... find one with the motor you want and go for a lesson... The majority of Mooney specific CFIs will NOT train in their personally owned Mooneys. The insurance to do so is outrageous. Quote
carusoam Posted December 21, 2018 Report Posted December 21, 2018 20 minutes ago, KLRDMD said: The majority of Mooney specific CFIs will NOT train in their personally owned Mooneys. The insurance to do so is outrageous. Thanks Ken. I may have forgotten an important detail... In that case... 36 minutes ago, carusoam said: There are quite a few Mooney specific CFIIs around that will (train) or (allow you to take a ride) in their Mooney... find one with the motor you want and go for a (lesson) or (ride)... We had a Mooney CFII in NJ with a K for a while... What I forgot, was we flew in my O for my training... Best regards, -a- Quote
Gatlin Gun Posted December 21, 2018 Author Report Posted December 21, 2018 41 minutes ago, carusoam said: Are you a motor-head, just not familiar with all these specific details? Or are these details all new, haven’t become a motor head yet? Keep in mind... having a complex and powerful plane takes a lot of experience to master... The more masterful you are, the better off you will be... I've been flying for 20+ years...just military. I'm spreading my wings as it were into GA. Mooneys meet the desired mission set. Fast crosscountry machines. What I'm learning is there are SO many variants (engines and models) in the <100k price range. Awesome and intimidating all at the same time. 4 Quote
Gatlin Gun Posted December 21, 2018 Author Report Posted December 21, 2018 Financially speaking, I'm ready to take-the-leap. Just a little apprehensive on "the first plane" leap...which is why all the questions, I suppose. 2 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted December 21, 2018 Report Posted December 21, 2018 19 minutes ago, Gatlin Gun said: Financially speaking, I'm ready to take-the-leap. Just a little apprehensive on "the first plane" leap...which is why all the questions, I suppose. We were all there... feel free to keep asking questions... 1 Quote
carusoam Posted December 21, 2018 Report Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Gatlin Gun said: I've been flying for 20+ years...just military. I'm spreading my wings as it were into GA. Mooneys meet the desired mission set. Fast crosscountry machines. What I'm learning is there are SO many variants (engines and models) in the <100k price range. Awesome and intimidating all at the same time. Like any other plane you will fly... spend the extra time for TT... it will be worth it... It will probably take about eight hours, to come out with only a few nuggets... But if one of those nuggets keeps you from landing in somebody’s garage after a departure stall, you got your money’s worth... The other nugget you want to get... is a fire breathing turbo 252 the right bird for you... It probably is... but... Lots of training, practice, and ownership experience to work through... Don’t be in a rush. For a great presentation, or just a good read... One MSer detailed his harrowing experience. That MSer, also a military pilot... has put in plenty of effort getting the word out... the key search words are probably departure stall and garage... Mooney performance is spectacular... except when it comes to too short fields, or too high DA situations, or too heavily loaded.... then it’s by the book. Make sure your plane matches the book before using the data... I took it in a similar fashion... with no flight experience how would I know a Mooney Ovation is the right bird for me... I started with a much lower cost M20C to simulate 90% of what I wanted to know before going all in... Some things worked as expected. We traded out the C and got the O... Hang out here long enough you will know all the finances required... MS is probably made up with 1/3, 1/3, 1/3... military pilot experience including many helicopter pilots commercial pilot experience up to and including 747s Mechanics that help us keep our birds maintained, Drs, lawyers, engineers, finance guys, EMT dispatcher, businessmen, And a great group of CFIs and CFIIs... All are very open with sharing their experience one way or another... even if it is only asking questions... Briefly, there have been some losses along the way... so take no short cuts, no matter what level your experience is today... Gravity can be so unkind. Search for the thread around here that has all the different military aircraft that MSers have piloted... from Sabres to F18s to Apaches to... If you can, add yours to the list... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote
Gatlin Gun Posted December 21, 2018 Author Report Posted December 21, 2018 very wise and experienced words, carusoam. "Better to be down here, wishing you were up there, then the other way around". Quote
Gatlin Gun Posted December 21, 2018 Author Report Posted December 21, 2018 I might be transitioning from the first 1/3 into the second 1/3...God will let me know soon. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted December 21, 2018 Report Posted December 21, 2018 See if you can, start planning a couple of things... A Mooney fly-in, a relatively local gathering of Mooney pilots... usually lunch is involved... Mooney Summit, an annual Florida gathering of Mooney pilots, to better the breed... great safety and ops presentations... fall time. Mapa training, super great regional gathering of Mooney pilots and Mooney specific CFIIs to help you get to your next level... quarterly. Mapa training can be semi-personalized from Best ways to perform IFR procedures to some people getting their BFRs... I saw one guy there re-training to fly after some terrible illness... MAPA is great for their personalized training to match what the pilot needs and want to get... the rest of the weekend is really interesting. Conversations with other real Mooney pilots sharing all kinds of info and stories... Best regards, -a- Quote
Gatlin Gun Posted December 21, 2018 Author Report Posted December 21, 2018 I LOVE the idea of this. I am sooooooooooo there! Quote
carusoam Posted December 21, 2018 Report Posted December 21, 2018 https://www.mooneysafety.com/ https://www.mooneysummit.com/ What part of the Mooney world are you currently in? We have a few MSers that have been in and out of the sandy countries... One MSer, that updated a beautiful M20F, then spent some time flying F18s off a carrier deck in Japan, came back home worked for AOPA, incredibly wise aviation writer, now flies for UPS... big planes, fewer wacky ‘customers’... he had an excellent 310hp Eagle for a while... It looks like the economy is still growing around the world... just at a slower pace than it has been... experienced pilots seem to be in a bit of a short supply... Could be a great time to be transitioning into civilian commercial aviation... and civilian GA... MS has been around for about a decade... we have gotten to know a collective few thousand Mooney pilots... like a small town, just spread around the globe... Best regards, -a- Quote
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