It's Back, Buyer Beware !!!!!!

[sleepingsquirrel]

Quote: jetdriven

someone is going to die.   you read it here first.  As long as you didnt know the person who is dead, it makes it easier.

[Shadrach]

Quote: sleepingsquirrel

 Well , ask the insurance company who sold it to the highest bidder! Do you think they cared about the final disposition? No they only cared about the bottom line. This is why I will deny any insurance company any revenue I can!! Now I'm talking about the insurance  company!! An insurance company that tried to cleanse its' hands of this loss, by selling it to the highest bidder!

[sleepingsquirrel]

Therefore their hands are clean!?

[sleepingsquirrel]

They were unwilling to accept the total loss!  This started the chain of events!

[sleepingsquirrel]

This is WTF I'm talking about :

I guess we are lucky that the parts/ electronics are in one airplane and not being sold among several aircraft with the potential for failure. There could be several deaths spread out over many different airframes if it was parted out  to the highest bidders. JPs offering started somewhere, Eve sinned, then Adam sinned, they were both considered guilty and both banished!

[sleepingsquirrel]

I suspect you believe in insurance.  Anything the insurance company does is OK as long as it keeps your premium as low as possible! Well?

[sleepingsquirrel]

Well?

[Shadrach]

Quote: sleepingsquirrel

This is WTF I'm talking about :

I guess we are lucky that the parts/ electronics are in one airplane and not being sold among several aircraft with the potential for failure. There could be several deaths spread out over many different airframes if it was parted out  to the highest bidders. JPs offering started somewhere, Eve sinned, then Adam sinned, they were both considered guilty and both banished!

[sleepingsquirrel]

Young man, I'm tired of shoveling it's your turn. The more you shovel the lighter my load!

[Shadrach]

Quote: sleepingsquirrel

Young man, I'm tired of shoveling it's your turn. The more you shovel the lighter my load!

[sleepingsquirrel]

"so my friends will know who I am and not shoot me down, My enemy will never see me coming"
Sleepingsquirrel

I have been on your six for a while ,you are smart and knowledgble , I respect you and want you to be respected as an aviator! GA needs leaders more now than ever! 

 

[N9937c]

One of the main items in the panel of this mooney had NO value as salvage other than the homebuilt market.

Aspen will not issue STC for used equipment install.

larry

[Shadrach]

Quote: N9937c

One of the main items in the panel of this mooney had NO value as salvage other than the homebuilt market.

Aspen will not issue STC for used equipment install.

larry

[N9937c]

Try to put in a 430/530, Aspen etc. without one. Garmin will furnish one for WASS but not 430. Aspen Will not furnish STC and this will keep from being able to install in cert. aircraft. Used auto pilots are the same. STEC just recently change their veiw but made it VERY expensive.

STC's ARE AIRCRAFT SERIAL AND MODEL SPECIFIC. Just because your model aircraft may be on the STC list doesn't mean the holder of the STC will grant you use of that STC. Must be issued in writing make, model AND serial no specific.

You are right that you can buy the Aspen used, You just can't install in certified aircraft.

Oh yea WTF!

larry

[Shadrach]

Quote: N9937c

Try to put in a 430/530, Aspen etc. without one. Garmin will furnish one for WASS but not 430. Aspen Will not furnish STC and this will keep from being able to install in cert. aircraft. Used auto pilots are the same. STEC just recently change their veiw but made it VERY expensive.

larry

[N9937c]

Aspen WILL  " TAG " a used unit with an 8130 for reinstall back to aircraft for which the STC was issued.

I also think it's a BBBBBAAAAADDDDDD business practice!

larry

[peter]

Couple of things. 

The Aspen display in this aircraft has not been recertified by Aspen. If this unit or its subassemblies come to us and are identified as being from this aircraft, or that they were submerged, we would most likely scrap those parts as being unairworthy. 

Aspen does recertify used equipment that comes to us, but only after it is run through our factory rebuild process.  Each factory rebuilt part conforms to new part performance requirements. 

Recertification of a piece of used equipment for reinstallation in a previously modified aircraft is not the same as modifying an aircraft for the first time using used equipment.

FAR 21.120 requires that Aspen provides written "permission" to folks we authorize to use our STC.  We currently provide this permission only to our authorized dealers, and then only for them to use our STC to modify an aircraft and install *new* Aspen equipment.  

Installation of *used* Aspen equipment is not covered by the new equipment permission statement. Per FAR part 21.120, a separate permission statement would be required to install the Aspen AML STC in an aircraft if using used equipment. 

Given the safety critical nature of our equipment, it would be bad business for Aspen to give a blanket authorization for people to modify an aircraft with our STC using used equipment. 

We will certainly consider requests to install our STC using used equipment, but each case would need to be evaluated on its individual circumstance before we would provide the FAA required 21.120 permission statement.  For example, I anticipate we would, as a minimum, require that the used equipment be tested and inspected to verify that it conforms with all design and airworthiness requirements applicable to new equipment.

[N601RX]

Quote: peter

Couple of things. 

The Aspen display in this aircraft has not been recertified by Aspen. If this unit or its subassemblies come to us and are identified as being from this aircraft, or that they were submerged, we would most likely scrap those parts as being unairworthy. 

[Shadrach]

Quote: peter

Couple of things. 

The Aspen display in this aircraft has not been recertified by Aspen. If this unit or its subassemblies come to us and are identified as being from this aircraft, or that they were submerged, we would most likely scrap those parts as being unairworthy. 

Aspen does recertify used equipment that comes to us, but only after it is run through our factory rebuild process.  Each factory rebuilt part conforms to new part performance requirements. 

Recertification of a piece of used equipment for reinstallation in a previously modified aircraft is not the same as modifying an aircraft for the first time using used equipment.

FAR 21.120 requires that Aspen provides written "permission" to folks we authorize to use our STC.  We currently provide this permission only to our authorized dealers, and then only for them to use our STC to modify an aircraft and install *new* Aspen equipment.  

Installation of *used* Aspen equipment is not covered by the new equipment permission statement. Per FAR part 21.120, a separate permission statement would be required to install the Aspen AML STC in an aircraft if using used equipment. 

Given the safety critical nature of our equipment, it would be bad business for Aspen to give a blanket authorization for people to modify an aircraft with our STC using used equipment. 

We will certainly consider requests to install our STC using used equipment, but each case would need to be evaluated on its individual circumstance before we would provide the FAA required 21.120 permission statement.  For example, I anticipate we would, as a minimum, require that the used equipment be tested and inspected to verify that it conforms with all design and airworthiness requirements applicable to new equipment.

[N9937c]

I called about 3 months ago and asked the question about obtaining the STC for a used ASPEN and was told there was no way one could be issued. I talked with a service manager at the time when Wentworth had one for sale. I did inquire as to sending the unit to ASPEN for recertification and was still told no. Maybe ASPEN has changed their mind also. I should have talked to Peter!

larry

[peter]

Quote: Shadrach

Peter, 

Thank you for clarifying. So this means that if the guy in the hangar next door wants to swap out the Aspen installed in his 201 for a G1000 then he cannot simply get it inspected and sell it to me for install in my F without getting special permission from Aspen?  This is to say that Aspen want's control over the individuals ability to install tested equipment in an STC'd aircraft above and beyond verifying condition of the unit?   Please help me understand how this contributes to safety?

Thanks!

[Shadrach]

Quote: peter

Let's be clear, it is the FAA that requires an STC holder to give permission to another party to use their STC.  That is because once installed under their STC, the STC holder becomes forever responsible for the airworthiness of that installation.Installation of an Aspen system is a complex task, and the equipment performs a safety critical function.  I definately think it contributes to safety to ensure the STC installation is done by qualified individuals, using current data, and airworthy components.   

In your scenario, I have to ask who would do the inspection and determine that the used equipment is airworthy?  As of today, there is no facility outside of the Aspen factory that is capable of performing that task.  Furthermore, who would do the installation?  Without factory support, there is no way to know if the installer has the right skills or equipment, or access to the appropriate and current technical data required by the STC.

If someone wants to install our equipment then all they need is to gain the required FAA credentials, and the appropriate business qualifications, and then make application to become one of our dealers.  Alternately, they can pursue their own STC for the installation of the equipment, and thereafter assume the perpetual responsibility for preserving the airworthiness of any systems installed under their independent STC.

[peter]

Quote: Shadrach

From what I'm reading the above scenario is not possible. I have never tried to install a used STC'd part.

Who is preventing this? The FAA or Aspen?

   ...

JPI makes its STCs available in .pdf format online to anyone...

 

 

[N9937c]

As to my conversation, I did tell the Aspen guy that the unit would be installed by my local avionics shop that is an Aspen dealer. His reply was that Aspen's policy was NO on STC's for used equipment.

I will call Aspen monday morning.

larry

[danb35]

What's being reported as "NO on STC's for used equipment" is somewhat incorrect.  There are a couple of issues here.  First is the STC itself.  In the case of the Aspen, the STC allows installation of various Aspen devices in any of a long list of aircraft.  The second is permission to use that STC.  Federal law (the U.S. Code and the FARs) requires written permission from the STC holder before making use of the STC.  Some vendors do this with a blanket statement--Garmin, for example, gives permission in the 430W installation manual for anybody to install it in any aircraft.  Other vendors give aircraft-specific permission, i.e., you may use STC # XXXXXX to modify Mooney M20F S/N 670234.  Of the latter type, some vendors are more accommodating at transferring the STC to another aircraft than others (and it is up to the STC holder's discretion and/or business sense how accommodating they want to be).

I have my own opinions about the legitimacy of this requirement, but it seems that another thread might be the best place for continued discussion of this subject--we're a bit far afield from the "death trap" Mooney that's the subject of this thread.