JPI EDM Questions

[JRam]

So I've come to a decision that doesn't seem like it has a good solution. On one hand, I'm broke from buying a new plane and putting a GTN 750 in it and replacing all the radios and getting ADS-B. On the other, I know I need some good information on the engine of my M20K so I can take care of her as well as possible. 

Currently, the plane has an EDM 700 in it. I have Savvy support and so I wanted to be able to get Savvy the data to ensure the plane was operating at the best temps, etc. The 700 may or may not download data (the shop is looking into it). They have a used EDM 830 which gets me what I need, but it sounds like they are concerned that they would need to double up on most the probes to get the data to the 830 because all of the other Mooney instruments would need to stay. And he thinks the cost would be nearly the same as putting in a 900. My goal in the future (who knows how long) is to move on to a Garmin 500 TXi to get rid of all the steam gauge mess and have the integrated EIS... unfortunately right now, not in the cards.

So herein lies my questions:

1.) Thoughts on the EDM 700? Will I be happy leaving it installed instead of upgrading at this time?

2.) Is going with a 900 worth 11-12 AMUs and another week of installation if I am going to upgrade in the next 3-5 years to something like the TXi?

3.) Does it make sense that the 830 wouldn't be able to just pull in the same feeds that the other instruments are getting and leave them all in place?

(This would be why you guys suggested I get what avionics I wanted already installed...the 'I told ya so' is noted! But I'm still pretty happy with the deal.)

[NJMac]

I dont think my 900 cost that much. 45 hrs labor for install and 4amu for the unit. I wouldn't fly without it now that I've experienced it.

So I've come to a decision that doesn't seem like it has a good solution. On one hand, I'm broke from buying a new plane and putting a GTN 750 in it and replacing all the radios and getting ADS-B. On the other, I know I need some good information on the engine of my M20K so I can take care of her as well as possible. 
Currently, the plane has an EDM 700 in it. I have Savvy support and so I wanted to be able to get Savvy the data to ensure the plane was operating at the best temps, etc. The 700 may or may not download data (the shop is looking into it). They have a used EDM 830 which gets me what I need, but it sounds like they are concerned that they would need to double up on most the probes to get the data to the 830 because all of the other Mooney instruments would need to stay. And he thinks the cost would be nearly the same as putting in a 900. My goal in the future (who knows how long) is to move on to a Garmin 500 TXi to get rid of all the steam gauge mess and have the integrated EIS... unfortunately right now, not in the cards.
So herein lies my questions:
1.) Thoughts on the EDM 700? Will I be happy leaving it installed instead of upgrading at this time?
2.) Is going with a 900 worth 11-12 AMUs and another week of installation if I am going to upgrade in the next 3-5 years to something like the TXi?
3.) Does it make sense that the 830 wouldn't be able to just pull in the same feeds that the other instruments are getting and leave them all in place?
(This would be why you guys suggested I get what avionics I wanted already installed...the 'I told ya so' is noted! But I'm still pretty happy with the deal.)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Pritch]

Your best bet is to call JPI and ask them, it's not rocket science, I installed mine from the ground up with guidance from my I/A.   I installed the basics and at each annual I add more sensors.  The 730/830 should just be plug and play with sensors you have now.

Pritch

 

[jaylw314]

16 minutes ago, JRam said:

1.) Thoughts on the EDM 700? Will I be happy leaving it installed instead of upgrading at this time?

2.) Is going with a 900 worth 11-12 AMUs and another week of installation if I am going to upgrade in the next 3-5 years to something like the TXi?

3.) Does it make sense that the 830 wouldn't be able to just pull in the same feeds that the other instruments are getting and leave them all in place?

(This would be why you guys suggested I get what avionics I wanted already installed...the 'I told ya so' is noted! But I'm still pretty happy with the deal.)

Some of the sensors can be fed off of.  My fuel flow sensor could be tapped into for my EDM 711 (the primary for CHT/EGT version), but I'm not sure about any others.

[Oldguy]

The EDM 700 is a good box and can have fuel flow added to it. If you currently have a Shadin for FF, there is a method to split out from the fuel transducer into a JPI box.

Pritch is correct about the 730/830. I did exactly that with my upgrade from an 800 to an 830. His suggestion of calling JPI is a good one, and figure out what options you have in you existing 700 before you call. There is probably a list of what it contains on the 337 from when it was installed. That would be a good place to start.

[Marauder]

So I've come to a decision that doesn't seem like it has a good solution. On one hand, I'm broke from buying a new plane and putting a GTN 750 in it and replacing all the radios and getting ADS-B. On the other, I know I need some good information on the engine of my M20K so I can take care of her as well as possible. 

Currently, the plane has an EDM 700 in it. I have Savvy support and so I wanted to be able to get Savvy the data to ensure the plane was operating at the best temps, etc. The 700 may or may not download data (the shop is looking into it). They have a used EDM 830 which gets me what I need, but it sounds like they are concerned that they would need to double up on most the probes to get the data to the 830 because all of the other Mooney instruments would need to stay. And he thinks the cost would be nearly the same as putting in a 900. My goal in the future (who knows how long) is to move on to a Garmin 500 TXi to get rid of all the steam gauge mess and have the integrated EIS... unfortunately right now, not in the cards.

So herein lies my questions:

1.) Thoughts on the EDM 700? Will I be happy leaving it installed instead of upgrading at this time?

2.) Is going with a 900 worth 11-12 AMUs and another week of installation if I am going to upgrade in the next 3-5 years to something like the TXi?

3.) Does it make sense that the 830 wouldn't be able to just pull in the same feeds that the other instruments are getting and leave them all in place?

(This would be why you guys suggested I get what avionics I wanted already installed...the 'I told ya so' is noted! But I'm still pretty happy with the deal.)

 

I have owned both an 830 and currently a 900. The big difference is the 900 can be used to replaced factory gauges, including the fuel gauges.

 

If you are strapped for money, an 830 will work fine. $11k to $12k seems a bit steep for a 900 that will work a turbo. JPI offers rebates. I would also try Aerodon on this site. He can sell you an 830 or 900 for a reasonable price.

 

An engine analyzer was the first thing I installed when I bought my Mooney. I truly believe it is a needed instrument.

 

As for your question about adding a JPI now and a TXi later. Let’s says you didn’t add one and you managed your engine poorly. How much are new jugs and/or unplanned engine work going to cost you?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[JRam]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

As for your question about adding a JPI now and a TXi later. Let’s says you didn’t add one and engine poorly. How much are new jugs and/or unplanned engine work going to cost you?

+1

Valid point. Although what is going through my head is more along the lines of "Will the 700 give me what I need for the time being and keep me away from unplanned engine work? But you make a fine point and I continue the internal argument (sometimes it goes external when the wife sees the cost).

[Marauder]

+1

Valid point. Although what is going through my head is more along the lines of "Will the 700 give me what I need for the time being and keep me away from unplanned engine work? But you make a fine point and I continue the internal argument (sometimes it goes external when the wife sees the cost).

 

Rule #1 in aviation, NEVER EVER share the price with the spouse.

 

Rule #2 in aviation, when asked by the spouse why you are adding something in the plane, the answer is ALWAYS “to make flying safer honey”.

[WilliamR]

12 minutes ago, JRam said:

+1

Valid point. Although what is going through my head is more along the lines of "Will the 700 give me what I need for the time being and keep me away from unplanned engine work? But you make a fine point and I continue the internal argument (sometimes it goes external when the wife sees the cost).

I have a M20K with a JPI 700.  The short answer to your question is yes.  I assume your M20K is typically equipped with a Hoskins FT101 or something better.  There's your fuel flow.  Does it integrate with your JPI?  Highly unlikely, but that's not the end of the world.  I also assume that the JPI 700 has all the cht/egt/tit probes installed and working.  If so, these are the basics to stay out of the "red box" and determine how rich or lean of peak you are. 

FYI, I looked into putting in a JPI 900.  JPI would not sell me a JPI 900 without cht/egt/tit probes even though I already have them.  Something about STC and agreement with the FAA that new probes would be used when using a 900 to replace the OEM gauges (forget the fact that the OEM setup had only 1 cht and a tit gauge).

William

[MIm20c]

35 minutes ago, JRam said:

+1

Valid point. Although what is going through my head is more along the lines of "Will the 700 give me what I need for the time being and keep me away from unplanned engine work? But you make a fine point and I continue the internal argument (sometimes it goes external when the wife sees the cost).

The difference between the 700 display and the 730 is very important IMO. The larger display is so much easier to read during busy times (TO) and you can make adjustments before reaching temps.  All the temperatures are displayed instead of cycling through the list each time.  

I’m Im going to go against the normal recommend 900 and suggest buying the 4 cyl 730 model. Buy the FF option (unless you already have it) and hook it into your current sensors. I’m not sure if a egt probe is the same part number as the TIT probe but you might be able to use one of your extra new probes to monitor that.

One huge negative of the 900 is the inability to change the limits on certain parameters.  I feel like taping over the stupid caution light as it goes nuts on every TO. 

[jaylw314]

12 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

The difference between the 700 display and the 730 is very important IMO. The larger display is so much easier to read during busy times (TO) and you can make adjustments before reaching temps.  All the temperatures are displayed instead of cycling through the list each time.  

I’m Im going to go against the normal recommend 900 and suggest buying the 4 cyl 730 model. Buy the FF option (unless you already have it) and hook it into your current sensors. I’m not sure if a egt probe is the same part number as the TIT probe but you might be able to use one of your extra new probes to monitor that.

One huge negative of the 900 is the inability to change the limits on certain parameters.  I feel like taping over the stupid caution light as it goes nuts on every TO. 

I agree on the 700, it drives me nuts that I have to use multiple button presses to flip between OAT, FF and temps

As for the 900, I swear I remember a thread where someone said a more recent software version allows you to adjust the alarm limits down (or more conservative) than the preset limits, but don't quote me on that...

[hypertech]

I believe you can set an advisory limit on the EDM900 but you can't change the upper limit.  That is fixed to the value from the POH.

I'm hoping to do the G500 upgrade someday and decided on the EDM900.  I want the information displayed constantly and on the pilot side to be in the scan.  The EDM900 is smaller and fits better.  It is also quite a bit less expensive than the Garmin unit with the display added.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm with @Marauder and others who won't fly without a good engine monitor. And for me, a good engine monitor is one that includes data logging.  I installed an EDM 900 and can't imagine flying without it. A turbo is pretty easy to over work and burn through cylinders, turbos, etc. Normally aspirated engines and different in that above a certain altitude they're not making enough power to hurt themselves. But the turbo can hurt itself at virtually any altitude you'd be flying. And thus the need to monitor it properly. I'm at 1500 hours on all original cylinders and am pretty sure the EDM 900 has paid for itself.

I'll give you another "temporary" option. Since you might be going to the TXi at some point. How about something like an Insight G2? It is about the same cost of and EDM 700 but has a MUCH better full color screen. It includes fuel flow, and all the required probes at no extra cost. It won't give you RPM or MP, but is therefore easier (cheaper) to install. It will give you full EGT, CHT and TIT without any scrolling. That and the fuel flow is really all you need to protect the engine. It also has data logging to an SD card built into the face of the unit.

IF your EDM 700 will support Data Logging, that might be good enough to see you through. There are lots of people using the 700 and are doing just fine with it. Personally I thought it was just too hard to read and I was afraid of having something set wrong and not noticing it.

If you'd like to see how I use my EDM900, send me a PM with your email address and I can give you access to my Google Drive where you can find lots of pictures of my EDM 900 in action in all different flight conditions, both LOP and ROP.

 

[Bryan]

I did this exact upgrade about a month ago.

I have an M20K 252 that had an EDM 700 installed when I got it.  The 700 did not have FF but had the following probes:

• 6 EGT / CHT probes
• TIT
• OAT
• Oil Temp
• and maybe one other.

My ship also had a Shadin FF meter and transducer.  I tried, before doing any work to adjust the K-factor several times on the Shadin but realized after I was chasing a moving target that my transducer might be bad.  I took it out and cleaned with HOPPS and several different methods but would not be consistent.

I then decided to upgrade the 700 to an 830 because it was cheaper than re-doing my entire panel for the 900 and Cies fuel senders.  I wanted to get some good data off my engine, now, for as cheap as possible.

JPI has a deal where you trade-in your 700 (display only) for an 830 and get like $300/credit off the cost of the new one.  Then you can buy just the display (830) and use your existing harness from the 700 - this is what I did. 

I then chose to get rid of the Shadin (display) and FF transducer and go to JPI probes.  All of this is done in the JPI, including %HP.  I did have to add the following probes:

• RPM (Slick/Pressurized mags)
• MAP
• Oil Press
• JPI FF transducer

Yes, you can piggyback off the existing Shadin transducer but mine was not well so I chose to replace/remove the old one.

In three days, my shop had the upgrade done with like 6-7 hours labor.  I did have to re-cut my hole for the EDM 700 and because the 830 hole is larger.

Here is my before and after.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, hypertech said:

I believe you can set an advisory limit on the EDM900 but you can't change the upper limit.  That is fixed to the value from the POH.

Nope, you're right, that's what I remember hearing, never mind me!

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, Bryan said:

I did this exact upgrade about a month ago.

I have an M20K 252 that had an EDM 700 installed when I got it.  The 700 did not have FF but had the following probes:

• 6 EGT / CHT probes
• TIT
• OAT
• Oil Temp
• and maybe one other.

My ship also had a Shadin FF meter and transducer.  I tried, before doing any work to adjust the K-factor several times on the Shadin but realized after I was chasing a moving target that my transducer might be bad.  I took it out and cleaned with HOPPS and several different methods but would not be consistent.

I then decided to upgrade the 700 to an 830 because it was cheaper than re-doing my entire panel for the 900 and Cies fuel senders.  I wanted to get some good data off my engine, now, for as cheap as possible.

JPI has a deal where you trade-in your 700 (display only) for an 830 and get like $300/credit off the cost of the new one.  Then you can buy just the display (830) and use your existing harness from the 700 - this is what I did. 

I then chose to get rid of the Shadin (display) and FF transducer and go to JPI probes.  All of this is done in the JPI, including %HP.  I did have to add the following probes:

• RPM (Slick/Pressurized mags)
• MAP
• Oil Press
• JPI FF transducer

Yes, you can piggyback off the existing Shadin transducer but mine was not well so I chose to replace/remove the old one.

In three days, my shop had the upgrade done with like 6-7 hours labor.  I did have to re-cut my hole for the EDM 700 and because the 830 hole is larger.

Here is my before and after.

You had a new panel cut!

[Bryan]

Yes, single 4-screw panel - was simple.  I took the measurements and @Aerodon hooked me up.  Funny, I went to the paint shop to match this color (Gray) and "Primer Gray" was so close that we did not mix up a custom paint can for this job.

[MIm20c]

33 minutes ago, Marauder said:

You had a new panel cut!

I’m getting mixed signals from you... you say don’t tell the wife but then call out a fellow Mooney brother that slipped in a new panel.  

[carusoam]

See if I have this right...

1) dough is in short supply... that negates new boxes like an 830 or 900 or EI or insight or other...

2) Making the most out of the 700 make a lot of low dollar sense...

3) It is a tremendous flight data recorder and alarm mechanism...

4) it can be integrated with FF, fuel used and distance to the airport... basic alarm if it detects running out...

5) Downloading it’s data is pretty simple some hardware to convert the RS232 to a USB to hook up your Modern low cost handy notebook/laptop computer...

6) all the bits and pieces and software are available from JPI...

7) Welcome to the CB club... you’re not alone....

8) Everybody is a member of the CB club sooner or later...  There is no cost to join and once a member, you are always able stay a member...

9) Fortunately this state of membership doesn’t have to last forever...

10) You really want to get through the first annual before declaring financial victory...

11) Then think about getting a primary engine monitor... JPI, EI, or Insight... plan it so when the dough is available, you have all the questions answered... get as many instruments connected as possible for data logging purposes...

12) From here forth... all finances are to be discussed in AMUs... for the benefit of the FA (finance administrator...) it is better for her (and you).

13) You get one free sensor with the JPI... It has the ship’s voltage displayed...

14) Set your current JPI up properly to get as many data points as you can in the shortest amount of time...  you really have to fly a lot to use up its memory...  download, reset, and fill it up again... good for a few years....

Pp thoughts only, not an instrument tech... all stuff I learned at MS...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

I’m getting mixed signals from you... you say don’t tell the wife but then call out a fellow Mooney brother that slipped in a new panel.  

Because this place is the Band of Brothers. No spouses to be found anywhere. What is said on MooneySpace stays on MooneySpace. Unless you’re one of those fools who made the fatal mistake of sharing the URL. Then you deserve what you got.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[laytonl]

Making the cable to connect the 700 to a laptop is simple.  However you must have a rs232 on a laptop to get the data or else by an expensive box from JPI to capture the data. Lee

[Andy95W]

31 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Because this place is the Band of Brothers. No spouses to be found anywhere.

 

Except Becca.  Met her at Oshkosh with Byron.  Nice people but I don't want her to get my wife's email address!

[MIm20c]

3 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Except Becca.  Met her at Oshkosh with Byron.  Nice people but I don't want her to get my wife's email address!

Wished I could have met up with the crew. Noticed the post a little late, bummer as I was camping 100 yards from the restaurant.

[JRam]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

See if I have this right...

1) dough is in short supply... that negates new boxes like an 830 or 900 or EI or insight or other...

2) Making the most out of the 700 make a lot of low dollar sense...

3) It is a tremendous flight data recorder and alarm mechanism...

4) it can be integrated with FF, fuel used and distance to the airport... basic alarm if it detects running out...

5) Downloading it’s data is pretty simple some hardware to convert the RS232 to a USB to hook up your Modern low cost handy notebook/laptop computer...

6) all the bits and pieces and software are available from JPI...

7) Welcome to the CB club... you’re not alone....

8) Everybody is a member of the CB club sooner or later...  There is no cost to join and once a member, you are always able stay a member...

9) Fortunately this state of membership doesn’t have to last forever...

10) You really want to get through the first annual before declaring financial victory...

11) Then think about getting a primary engine monitor... JPI, EI, or Insight... plan it so when the dough is available, you have all the questions answered... get as many instruments connected as possible for data logging purposes...

12) From here forth... all finances are to be discussed in AMUs... for the benefit of the FA (finance administrator...) it is better for her (and you).

13) You get one free sensor with the JPI... It has the ship’s voltage displayed...

14) Set your current JPI up properly to get as many data points as you can in the shortest amount of time...  you really have to fly a lot to use up its memory...  download, reset, and fill it up again... good for a few years....

Pp thoughts only, not an instrument tech... all stuff I learned at MS...

Best regards,

-a-

So I definitely am in the CB club at the moment after the purchase and upgrades. I'm really mulling through everything I have read and all the advice. The engine (and turbo) is the one thing I have not had experience with. I've flown an M20E for 500 hours, the K will be a bit longer, but I think I'll get the feel for how she fly's pretty quick. What I am going to have to learn is the engine and care of it. So that's what makes this a difficult decision. Plus colored blinky lights > 1 color blinky lights ;-)

[mike_elliott]

12 hours ago, Marauder said:

You had a new panel cut!

but why did he keep the old FF/EGT/All switch for the 700?