Mooney Stall/Spins

[steingar]

Most of this is academic.  If you screw the pooch badly enough to get into a spin odds are you're going to do it turning base to final.  At that point it doesn't matter what technique you use, probably the best one is the bend down and kiss your ass goodbye.

[jaylw314]

17 minutes ago, steingar said:

Most of this is academic.  If you screw the pooch badly enough to get into a spin odds are you're going to do it turning base to final.  At that point it doesn't matter what technique you use, probably the best one is the bend down and kiss your ass goodbye.

Unfortunately, the evidence supports this recommendation...

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Most of this is academic.  If you screw the pooch badly enough to get into a spin odds are you're going to do it turning base to final.  At that point it doesn't matter what technique you use, probably the best one is the bend down and kiss your ass goodbye.

Egzactly.  The discussion should be around avoiding the flight envelope that could put you into a spin.

[M016576]

4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

In a stall recovery, even with full nose up trim, releasing back pressure should result in recovery (by design).  I imagine in a stall, simply releasing back pressure should also result in recovery, although forcefully neutralizing the elevator might result in recovery a little faster.  In fact, that's the Mueller/Beggs spin recovery technique ("hands off ailerons and elevators")

Try it.  Trim full nose up while holding the yoke forward for level flight, apply full power, and release the yoke entirely.  The plane will climb to a stall (rapidly). The nose will come down (as the wings stall) then as airspeed builds, it will try to stall again- it will take time for the plane to achieve a climb,but with enough altitude, it  will climb and stall again.  Make sure you keep the airplane coordinated with rudder, and at a high enough altitude to recover in case more than just a stall develops.  Also- be sure to watch your max airframe speeds.

in a spin, holding all the way back on the yoke delays the recovery (most likely indefinitely) and will probably also result in some violent post stall characteristics, although may just steepen the spin (that depends on the wing and aircraft fuselage design).  If the aircraft is fully trimmed up, that too may delay the recovery. If the pilot eases the back stick pressure to what “feels” like neutral- and the aircraft is actually still trimmed nose up- and the force on the control surfaces might be enough to cause the pilot to still have more than neutral back stick in.  Thus- to “neutralize the controls,” the pilot needs to physically put the yoke in the neutral position, which may result in some “forward pressure.”

Their are multiple modes of spins- but the issue is this in many aircraft (but not all): the spin is self-sustaining and the aircraft will not recover just by releasing the controls.  Anti-spin inputs need to be applied.  Counter the yaw, break the stall. But each aircraft is different.. although many GA aircraft exhibit similar characteristics due to their somewhat standardized certification envelopes.

Ive flown and spun two aircraft that will recover just by releasing the controls: but they both had to be trimmed to neutral in order for that to work.  One was a jet, the other a turboprop.  It was still much faster to recover using anti-spin controls.

Again- I’ve never spun a Mooney, and don’t plan on it.  For all I know it might just get into post stall gyrations and then auto recover.. but from what I’ve read of a Mooney in a spin, and sadly, what we’ve all seen in some of these crashes, is that it tends to exhibit more “traditional” spin characteristics.

 

[RobertGary1]

Bill wheat claimed that Mooney spins are actually very conventional. The only person I know personally that has spun a Mooney is @donkaye  

there used to be a cockpit video of an incepted spin in a Mooney (accidental)  I’ll try to find it  

 

-Robert 

Edited August 23, 2018 by RobertGary1

[RobertGary1]

Cockpit view of Mooney spin. 

-Robert

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Cockpit view of Mooney spin. 

-Robert

Whoever was the pilot of this aircraft should be ashamed of himself.  I would never recommend doing stalls with someone in the back seat!  With the rearward CG you could end up with an unrecoverable flat spin.  The instant the plane started falling off on the wing recovery should have been made.  And adding power while in the spin with its increase in torque would add to the difficulty of spin recovery, although if recovery the normal way wouldn't work then Mooney recommended throttle jockeying to break the stall.  At the altitude at which this spin took place they were lucky to get out of this alive.  There is no good rational explanation for this behavior.  And posting it on the internet---just "plane" dumb.

[FastTex]

From my POH. Do you guys have pretty much the same info?

Should a spin occur employ the following recovery
procedures immediately:
1. Neutralize the ailerons and close the throttle.
2. Briskly apply full rudder against the spin.
3. Follow with rapid forward movement of the control wheel
to pitch the nose down.
4. Hold the rudder in full antispin configuration until rotation
stops.
5. Recover from resulting dive.
NOTE: If spin recovery is delayed until the aircraft
has made one complete turn in the spin, rotation may
continue up to one additional turn after antispin controls
are fully applied.
WARNING: Up to 2000 feet of altitude may be lost in
a one-turn spin and recovery; therefore stalls at low
altitude are extremely critical.
 

[Hank]

Yes, that's in my Owners Manual right after "THIS AIRCRAFT IS NOT AUTHORIZED FOR SPINS." The 2000-foot loss for a single turn sobers up a lot of wannabe aerobats . . . .

[Guest]

Our local flight school lost a 172 with four fatals when a young pilot decided to demonstrate stalls and spins to his friends from 5-6000 feet.  The impact in a corn field was the exact shape of the plane.

Clarence

[wcb]

6 hours ago, donkaye said:

Whoever was the pilot of this aircraft should be ashamed of himself.  I would never recommend doing stalls with someone in the back seat!  With the rearward CG you could end up with an unrecoverable flat spin.  The instant the plane started falling off on the wing recovery should have been made.  And adding power while in the spin with its increase in torque would add to the difficulty of spin recovery, although if recovery the normal way wouldn't work then Mooney recommended throttle jockeying to break the stall.  At the altitude at which this spin took place they were lucky to get out of this alive.  There is no good rational explanation for this behavior.  And posting it on the internet---just "plane" dumb.

Also, shows how quick you can turn a stall into a spin if you do not react quickly enough.  Simply based on my opinion of the video I do not think the instructor meant to do a spin he was simply to slow to react with the stall.  I could not hear before the spin but it sound like all they were talking about was doing a stall.

[Yetti]

On 8/21/2018 at 12:58 PM, jaylw314 said:

OK, that makes sense now.  your earlier post confused me a little, I was thinking if your engine quits during cruise you'd need to actually pull up or wait to get to best glide speed, but you're talking about the engine quitting during a climb...

We were at about 800-900AGL on climb out.   Just completed a 90 degree turn from the runway heading when the fan quit.  I do recall hearing the stall horn chirp 3 times as we came back around. 

 

You really only have seconds to perform the right action.   It is a high stress situation when the fan quits.  You will revert to muscle memory and training.  As we know the Mooney controls don't need much input.   Pulling back will kill you.   We need to be taught to push down when the stall horn chirps.

[steingar]

11 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Cockpit view of Mooney spin. 

-Robert

Looked more like a cross controlled stall to me, indicative of poor airmanship.  And yeah, doing it with folks in the back is risky at best.  He put in the power with his nose pointed straight down, a really good way to break the airframe.  Surprised this guy wanted his sloppy flying posted on the internet.  If I had a day like that i"d just want to quietly crawl in a corner and die of embarrassment.

[bonal]

14 minutes ago, steingar said:

Looked more like a cross controlled stall to me, indicative of poor airmanship.  And yeah, doing it with folks in the back is risky at best.  He put in the power with his nose pointed straight down, a really good way to break the airframe.  Surprised this guy wanted his sloppy flying posted on the internet.  If I had a day like that i"d just want to quietly crawl in a corner and die of embarrassment.

The video was shot from the back seater and perhaps that person was not too happy with what took place and decided to post the recording because of their displeasure even though the pilot begged and pleaded with them to not do so.  When flying with passengers and not on an instructional flight this kind of thing is really stupid putting other people's lives at risk

[steingar]

When I have pax we don't do stalls, steep turns, or any of that.  We land somewhere nice where pax get get ice cream or something else yummy.  

[Yetti]

I read somewhere "They are already scared why would you do something to scare them more?"   My transition instructor "Just fly airline smooth"

[bonal]

Bad judgment or just plane stupidity is sadly found in all groups of humankind pilots are not exempt. 

[xcrmckenna]

I read somewhere "They are already scared why would you do something to scare them more?"   My transition instructor "Just fly airline smooth"

I tell people I’m the most boring pilot out there. I want to get you from point A to point B with only great views and as uneventful as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

I tell people I’m the most boring pilot out there. I want to get you from point A to point B with only great views and as uneventful as possible.

That's me as well... and I'll be doing as little of the flying as possible. 

[MARZ]

25 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

I tell people I’m the most boring pilot out there. I want to get you from point A to point B with only great views and as uneventful as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep - and all my preflight instructions with first timers includes - " If at anytime you want to end the flight let me know and we'll return and land" 

I've had two 10 minute flights as a result, even though it was a little bumpy for me it was hell for the pax. 

[RobertGary1]

7 hours ago, steingar said:

When I have pax we don't do stalls, steep turns, or any of that.  We land somewhere nice where pax get get ice cream or something else yummy.  

That might be a bit of an over generalization. It depends on the passengers. When my kids were young I had a Mooney with a partner. Both our kids loved doing airwork. Stalls and steep turns were their favorites.

-Robert

[bonal]

All depends on the type of airplane the experience of the pilot,  doing it in an appropriate manor and location and most importantly the passengers. 

[Skates97]

13 hours ago, steingar said:

When I have pax we don't do stalls, steep turns, or any of that.  We land somewhere nice where pax get get ice cream or something else yummy.  

When I took the nieces and nephews up they wanted to see what a steep turn was and loved it. Proper preparation was important, explaining that 45 degrees is halfway to 90, showing them with my hand what the bank would look like before starting it, and explaining that it would feel much steeper than it was. Talking them through it as the angle kept increasing and telling them where I was stopping from going any further, having them look down and pointing out the altitude indicator and that it wasn't moving, so despite what it might look like we weren't getting any closer to the ground. The response was always "Wow" or "Cool!" Surprises aren't good for the passengers, knowing what to expect before it happens eliminates a lot of apprehension.

I do the same thing if we are going to be flying over areas I am expecting bumpy air, most of the time in the local areas I can anticipate it. I tell them what "may" happen and why they may feels some bumps. Then if/when it does I say, see, there it is.

6 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

I tell people I’m the most boring pilot out there. I want to get you from point A to point B with only great views and as uneventful as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Me too, boring is good.

[320KPH]

not wearing his shoulder harness...

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

On 8/23/2018 at 6:55 AM, wcb said:

Also, shows how quick you can turn a stall into a spin if you do not react quickly enough.  Simply based on my opinion of the video I do not think the instructor meant to do a spin he was simply to slow to react with the stall.  I could not hear before the spin but it sound like all they were talking about was doing a stall.

I do not think this guy was a CFI...Just a knucklehead.