Danb Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 The airplane crash this week in Burlington NJ, was on an angel flight mission, he was an experienced pilot completing 16 Angel flight missions alone with his copilot. Luckily they were enroute to pick up the patient. I don’t know what type of plane or any details yet. As Angel flight gets more details they will notify the AFE pilots with info, totally a shame. RIP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydvrboy Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 News article reported it was a twin-engine Hawker Beechcraft 58 Baron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) All I could find so far: https://www.courierpostonline.com/story/news/2018/06/14/marlton-man-robert-winner-timothy-scannevin-fatal-burlington-county-nj-plane-crash-ntsb/701012002/ "Shortly after takeoff, there was an occurrence that caused the aircraft to crash, and that crash did take place on both sides of the road," New Jersey State Police said Wednesday. "There were a lot of trees in that area and there was some contact between the aircraft and the trees." Witnesses described seeing smoke and shadows cross through a field and over the roadway before seeing the plane crash into a patch of woods. Winner is the registered owner of the downed aircraft, according to federal databases. The Beechcraft Baron took off from the Lumberton airport around 9:04 a.m., according to FlightAware, an aircraft tracking website. That plane's flight path appears to have gone offline a few minutes into the flight near the area of the crash scene, according to FlightAware data. The last recorded data point was a little after 9:07 a.m., just over three minutes after departure and just west of Smithville-Jacksonville Road. That plane descended from 1,300 feet to 400 feet in less than 90 seconds, with no further data points recorded. ----------------------------------- A bit of wind but no ceiling: KVAY 141354Z AUTO 28007G18KT 10SM CLR 24/09 A2987 RMK AO2 SLP113 T02390089 KVAY 141254Z AUTO 29008KT 210V330 10SM CLR 23/09 A2987 RMK AO2 SLP114 T02280094 Edited June 14, 2018 by kortopates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenL757 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 I’ve been into Lumberton several times for Angel Flight missions...this hits really close to home. Sincere condolences to the families of those who perished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 Looks like an engine out on take off. Very sad indeed. José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 8 hours ago, Piloto said: Looks like an engine out on take off. Very sad indeed. José what makes you say that? was this written somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 18 hours ago, Danb said: As Angel flight gets more details they will notify the AFE pilots with info, totally a shame. RIP Probably not,,,the email I got from them had 5% of the info already on the internet....My guess is they want to forget about it...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Jim Peace said: what makes you say that? was this written somewhere? I said "Looks". On twins most catastrophic crashes on takeoff are due to engine out. The asymmetrical thrust due to the operating engine and the low air speed causes a steep turn and dive resulting in a crash. An engine out could be caused by engine failure or blocked fuel supply. José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 Very sad news especially as they were on a mission to help someone in need. May they rest in peace and comfort to the left behind that knew them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Piloto said: On twins most catastrophic crashes on takeoff are due to engine out. The asymmetrical thrust due to the operating engine and the low air speed causes a steep turn and dive resulting in a crash. Not commenting on this accident. Asymmetrical thrust does not "cause" a steep turn and dive in a twin. I am no expert but wouldn't an improperly loaded airplane for the density altitude or improper rudder and speed input be more likely to cause a turn. I have had engine failures in real life and a guess of maybe 300 in the simulator. Never once been in a steep turn/dive simply due to an engine failure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 31 minutes ago, Jim Peace said: Not commenting on this accident. Asymmetrical thrust does not "cause" a steep turn and dive. I am no expert but wouldn't an improperly loaded airplane for the density altitude or improper rudder and speed input be more likely to cause a turn. I have had engine failures in real life and a guess of maybe 300 in the simulator. Never once been in a steep turn/dive simply due to an engine failure. I believe Jose was referring to the Vmc roll, which we in singles are never in danger of . . . . When I first read about this accident elsewhere, there was no mention of Angel Flight. So sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Hank said: I believe Jose was referring to the Vmc roll, which we in singles are never in danger of . . . . When I first read about this accident elsewhere, there was no mention of Angel Flight. So sad. In a twin you are never in danger of Vmc roll if properly loaded for the conditions and proper input of controls after the failure, especially at 1300 feet. Do light twins need to be certified to fly on one engine at max gross weight after a failure? NO,,,but if you treat them like the accidents that they are waiting to happen it should not get to the point where you roll over..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) Witnesses said they saw the plane fly over a field before crashing into the trees. None of this sounds like a VMC problem. If I were guessing, and I am. Maybe he had an engine failure and caged the wrong one. Either way the NTSB is very good at figuring out these things. Edited June 15, 2018 by N201MKTurbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 Bob was a friend and a fellow Angel Flight pilot. We had flown together and he was a very capable pilot. He loved his Baron. We spoke on the phone Tuesday evening and he mentioned the flight and the wx he was monitoring. Wednesday morning VAY was LIFR ceilings around 400. I didn’t think he’d go but he went. If he had trouble and needed to get back in there was no way because there are no precision approaches. I heard today at the airport that both engines were running moments before the crash. Speculation is spatial disorientation and loss of control. Tailwinds and clear skies Bob. This is the second friend based on my field who I have lost to a Baron crash. The first was Ron Lecates who crashed his Baron several years ago at MIV. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 19 minutes ago, PTK said: Bob was a friend and a fellow Angel Flight pilot. We had flown together and he was a very capable pilot. He loved his Baron. We spoke on the phone Tuesday evening and he mentioned the flight and the wx he was monitoring. Wednesday morning VAY was LIFR ceilings around 400. I didn’t think he’d go but he went. If he had trouble and needed to get back in there was no way because there are no precision approaches. I heard today at the airport that both engines were running moments before the crash. Speculation is spatial disorientation and loss of control. Tailwinds and clear skies Bob. This is the second friend based on my field who I have lost to a Baron crash. The first was Ron Lecates who crashed his Baron several years ago at MIV. I’m very sort ptk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Hank said: I believe Jose was referring to the Vmc roll, which we in singles are never in danger of . . . . When I first read about this accident elsewhere, there was no mention of Angel Flight. So sad. to me it doesn't matter if its a dog flight, angel flight, mile high club flight, fun flight or commercial flight. It is very sad to hear any time one of us goes down. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 27 minutes ago, PTK said: Bob was a friend and a fellow Angel Flight pilot. We had flown together and he was a very capable pilot. He loved his Baron. We spoke on the phone Tuesday evening and he mentioned the flight and the wx he was monitoring. Wednesday morning VAY was LIFR ceilings around 400. I didn’t think he’d go but he went. If he had trouble and needed to get back in there was no way because there are no precision approaches. I heard today at the airport that both engines were running moments before the crash. Speculation is spatial disorientation and loss of control. Tailwinds and clear skies Bob. This is the second friend based on my field who I have lost to a Baron crash. The first was Ron Lecates who crashed his Baron several years ago at MIV. So sorry for your loss Peter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 An example of an engine out on a twin. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=airplane+crashes+over+bridge&view=detail&mid=78826E26444688F1A63378826E26444688F1A633&FORM=VIRE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 10 minutes ago, Piloto said: An example of an engine out on a twin. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=airplane+crashes+over+bridge&view=detail&mid=78826E26444688F1A63378826E26444688F1A633&FORM=VIRE If memory serves, the pilot feathered the good engine in that case. If so, this is a poor example to use as an engine failure accident in a twin; it was "pilot error". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, Piloto said: An example of an engine out on a twin. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=airplane+crashes+over+bridge&view=detail&mid=78826E26444688F1A63378826E26444688F1A633&FORM=VIRE it would not have crashed if the pilots did not shut down the wrong engine.......the airline is out if business due to this accident.....The engine out did not cause this accident or the airplane to roll. It was pilot error in handling an engine out that caused it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransAsia_Airways_Flight_235 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Piloto said: An example of an engine out on a twin. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=airplane+crashes+over+bridge&view=detail&mid=78826E26444688F1A63378826E26444688F1A633&FORM=VIRE I believe that in this case the crew shut down the wrong engine and instantly became a glider. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackn Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 5 hours ago, PTK said: Bob was a friend and a fellow Angel Flight pilot. We had flown together and he was a very capable pilot. He loved his Baron. We spoke on the phone Tuesday evening and he mentioned the flight and the wx he was monitoring. Wednesday morning VAY was LIFR ceilings around 400. I didn’t think he’d go but he went. If he had trouble and needed to get back in there was no way because there are no precision approaches. I heard today at the airport that both engines were running moments before the crash. Speculation is spatial disorientation and loss of control. Tailwinds and clear skies Bob. This is the second friend based on my field who I have lost to a Baron crash. The first was Ron Lecates who crashed his Baron several years ago at MIV. It’s very unsettling when it happens to someone close to you. We have to think on it as a learning opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 16, 2018 Report Share Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) Here are a couple of videos of twins crashing due to engine failure. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Twin+engine+video+crash&&view=detail&mid=1A736847EF950E7D18D31A736847EF950E7D18D3&&FORM=VDRVRV https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Twin+engine+video+crash&view=detail&mid=FD83690E89F59A283067FD83690E89F59A283067&FORM=VIRE https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Twin+engine+video+crash&&view=detail&mid=3CB79F938D1C711FEC813CB79F938D1C711FEC81&&FORM=VDRVRV Not only the extra the engine didn't prevented the crash but the additional fuel on twins enhanced the fire on the ground. José Edited June 16, 2018 by Piloto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted June 16, 2018 Report Share Posted June 16, 2018 9 hours ago, KLRDMD said: If memory serves, the pilot feathered the good engine in that case. If so, this is a poor example to use as an engine failure accident in a twin; it was "pilot error". So why the plane rolled to 90 deg. Still the cause of the crash was due to engine failure on takeoff José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted June 16, 2018 Report Share Posted June 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, Piloto said: Still the cause of the crash was due to engine failure on takeoff José huh? please someone get me a beer....and I don't even drink......it may be a factor but not the cause..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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