20C sitting a while

[DXB]

59 minutes ago, airbusflyboy said:

All very good wisdom and advice , truly appreciated to all of you ! I’m considering letting the local on field maimtenance shop get involved and look it over hard , it’ll cost me some bucks but will get me closer to a decision , right now I’ve seen it and cost me a days time spent traveling back and forth but it was very informative and worth the trip .......... Another area mechanic told me a story of an owner of a 1967 Mooney spending $32,000 to get that one back in flying condition after a 10 year hiatus from sitting .......... 

A couple other things I forgot to mention on this 1962 Mooney ........ I noticed that the control yokes were sitting with a slight tilt to the right and of course the corresponding ailerons were deflected as such , I noted from moving the yoke around that this condition seemed to be static , iow, the yokes returned to rest in this slight right position , not centered ......... Is this a rigging issue ? Also , there is NO spin on oil filter only the oil screen .

What specific inspections do you guys recommend by this maintenance shop ? I’m reading a lot here about checking tubing , spars , corrosion ? Is the fact that the number one logbook is missing a real big deal according to negotiating the price ? 

 

its worth scrap value with or without the log unless owner gets it back in annual and flying first.

rudder and ailerons are linked.  Make sure rudder/nose-wheel are straight before concluding ailerons are  misrigged.  

[Yetti]

my yokes tend to go right.

There is a prebuy check list in the downloads section M20Doc.  

Review if you are handy or just want to fly it.

here is at least one list of some first year things.

[Yetti]

Realizing that most airplanes only fly about 100 hours a year, there are 2020 hours in a work year.  So all planes would be junk if sitting killed their airworthyness.    Without a good corrosion inspection the the airframe is worth beer cans.   Of course salvage value for these planes it pretty high.  you could probably scrap a Mooney for $15,000.   

[airbusflyboy]

We did open up a couple of inspection panels on the bottom right wing and looked at one of the spars and surrounding sheet metal was quite clean and very clean spars. It has a very dated interior and average head liner with a small tear. One thing of weirdness tonight ............ I did a search on FLIGHTAWARE.COM and found that this N number was used for a flight in 2015 down in Florida .......... the N number was correct as Flight Aware also posts the Registration info , the aircraft is out of annual since 2009 and has been sitting in the hangar ever since, has not moved .............. So, how does this information get posted on Flight Aware in 2015 when the aircraft is sitting in the hangar ??? I queried the seller about this find and assured me that the aircraft has not moved out of the hangar since 2009. Is FLIGHTAWARE correct in its data or is it possible that someone used this guy's N number to make a flight down in Florida ? I am going to investigate a bit on this.

[Keith20EH]

I say buy it right, fix it up, enjoy the process, expect it to take time and money, and don’t over analize it.  I just got my ‘66 M20E home.  Before I bought it, the last annual was 2001, I paid a fair price, spent some $, some effort, and have a great Mooney quick build kit.  It will still be cheaper than an RV, or a new Mooney.  Plus you will know it better, and meet tons of good people along the way. You are on the right track, if you like it, it suits your mission, you can afford it, and aren’t ignoring reality, do it.  Good luck.

[carusoam]

There aren’t many flying Mooneys selling for less than 20amu...

In Annual certainly adds value...

Your PPI, done properly, will separate the un-useable corroded plane from a buildable forever plane...

What are you trying to buy?  

• The lowest cost Mooney to use up and resell... this will be harder to resell...
• Get a feel for private aviation...this will work, but then What...?
• Build a forever plane... this would work, make sure it is Corrosion free...

Lowest lifetime cost Mooneys are in the middle of the price range when buying them...

The Lowest acquisition cost Mooney is usually a horrible way to start out.  It has immediate needs and other needs that are right around the corner... when you catch up a decade later the bills start coming in again...the second time...

My M20C was a low cost acquisition, that was sold a decade later.... it went from worn out to fully worn out in that time...

Make it happen... just know what it is...

PP thoughts only.

Best regards,

-a-

[mpg]

On 5/21/2018 at 12:34 PM, Jim Peace said:

It depends AIRBUSBOY, are you a captain or an FO. 

The gear shocks you mention will be the cheapest thing you do to the plane at between 1100 yourself  or 2000 dollars with labor.....everything else will eat up multiple months of paychecks.

also where is this plane?  dry climate? corrosion?

 

1962 MOONEY M20C • $21,000 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • S/N 2004. TT 3598, SMOH 1196. Narco CP136 TSO audio panel, (2) Mark 12d TSO nav comms, AT 50A transponder, ADF 31A, Northstar M3 GPS. Last annual 2009. Always hangared. Will need radios and thorough annual. • Contact Jerry Holzsweig, Friend of Owner - located DALLAS, TX USA • Telephone: 9723424179 • Posted May 18, 2018 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures

 

[Wildhorsesracing]

WOW! Deja Vu all over again!  I bought the exact twin of that aircraft 6 yrs and 175 hrs ago!  Mine was ~3500 hrs, ~900 SMOH and had been sitting in an enclosed hangar for 10 yrs after the owner passed and the heirs fought over how much to sell it for. 

It has been a wonderful workhorse ever since.  I bought it thinking I'd use it for what I needed and then throw it away or sell what is left.  I have always approached it as a "disposable airplane", kind of like the same philosophy of a new car purchase.  I knew it could get expensive but I also made sure the PPI was thorough so there would be no surprises.

FYI - My first annual was ~5 AMU but annuals ever since have been 1 AMU.

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

WOW! Deja Vu all over again!  I bought the exact twin of that aircraft 6 yrs and 175 hrs ago!  Mine was ~3500 hrs, ~900 SMOH and had been sitting in an enclosed hangar for 10 yrs after the owner passed and the heirs fought over how much to sell it for. 

It has been a wonderful workhorse ever since.  I bought it thinking I'd use it for what I needed and then throw it away or sell what is left.  I have always approached it as a "disposable airplane", kind of like the same philosophy of a new car purchase.  I knew it could get expensive but I also made sure the PPI was thorough so there would be no surprises.

FYI - My first annual was ~5 AMU but annuals ever since have been 1 AMU.

Yeah  but what does it look like now?     The few, the proud . . . .

[Wildhorsesracing]

She's nekid now!

[steingar]

Lotsa aircraft look good in the buff.  Never thought the Mooney was one of them, sorry. Eye of the beholder and all that.  I have no doubt the aircraft will sell, always someone looking for a bargain. Maybe it works out. Then again, maybe something important breaks just after takeoff, or over the rocks, or...

[gsxrpilot]

"Will need radios and thorough annual"

$21,000 purchase
$5,000 annual (best case, nothing wrong like @Wildhorsesracing)
$10,000 radios installed (used pair of KX155's or single GNS430)

$36,000 is best case on a $30K to $35K airplane.

At this point you're gambling on the engine with an additional $25 to $30K. So I still don't see the upside even if you win the bet on the engine.

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

"Will need radios and thorough annual"

$21,000 purchase
$5,000 annual (best case, nothing wrong like @Wildhorsesracing)
$10,000 radios installed (used pair of KX155's or single GNS430)

$36,000 is best case on a $30K to $35K airplane.

At this point you're gambling on the engine with an additional $25 to $30K. So I still don't see the upside even if you win the bet on the engine.

While I agree with this basic analysis, you've badly over-estimated the overhaul. An IO-360 may run that much, especially with angled valves, but the simple engines in our Cs can be overhauled for 15-20K. And we all take the engine overhaul gamble with every airplane purchase and every flight.

[Wildhorsesracing]

21 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

At this point you're gambling on the engine with an additional $25 to $30K. So I still don't see the upside even if you win the bet on the engine.

A local flight school replaced the engine in their trainer because it had reached TBO.  The plane flew fine and the engine wasn't making metal.  The "factory reman" engine was a nightmare and they lost a year while they worked the bugs out of a "new" engine that wasn't quite the same as what the plane came with but the engine manufacturer had made "improvements". 

Every engine is a gamble, always be vigilant with your pre-flight and go fly anyway.

[Bob_Belville]

10 hours ago, airbusflyboy said:

 So, how does this information get posted on Flight Aware in 2015 when the aircraft is sitting in the hangar ??? I queried the seller about this find and assured me that the aircraft has not moved out of the hangar since 2009. Is FLIGHTAWARE correct in its data or is it possible that someone used this guy's N number to make a flight down in Florida ? I am going to investigate a bit on this.

I knew a guy back in the '80s, he was an IA who owned a Comanche 400, who used the ATC system when he needed to go IMC "anonymously" by using the another tail number. This was pre ADS-B obviously. (After I knew him he reputedly flew that 400 with a fuselage fuel bladder and other "payload" to/from Columbia S.A.)  

[airbusflyboy]

25 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I knew a guy back in the '80s, he was an IA who owned a Comanche 400, who used the ATC system when he needed to go IMC "anonymously" by using the another tail number. This was pre ADS-B obviously. (After I knew him he reputedly flew that 400 with a fuselage fuel bladder and other "payload" to/from Columbia S.A.)  

Ha !!! I was ATC years ago and never thought anyone would have the "balls" to do something like this !!! I was very surprised to see this N number on a flight down in Florida a few years ago and the N number was in fact registered to the same folks that own this airplane but I am being told it has never left the hangar since 2009 !!!

[Yetti]

You may have lost the N number. There is a every three years registration process.  Has this plane been reregisterd recently?  Also when I see the weirdest story imaginable in the news, I read the location and then say  "oh Florida"

[Bob_Belville]

24 minutes ago, airbusflyboy said:

Ha !!! I was ATC years ago and never thought anyone would have the "balls" to do something like this !!! I was very surprised to see this N number on a flight down in Florida a few years ago and the N number was in fact registered to the same folks that own this airplane but I am being told it has never left the hangar since 2009 !!!

If someone else, in some other plane, either intentionally or in error, got into the system as "your" plane I suppose the owner info came from the registration and not from the flight plan. 

[deanders]

I was given a 65 M20E that sat for 4 years with a mid time engine. I spent a year and a half restoring her completely including paint, interior, fuel bladders, avionics, gear over and prop overhaul. I didn't overhaul the engine but did overhaul or replace all the accessories. I'm an A&P so labor was free and I still spent $85,000.00. If I had to do it over again I would pass on it.  Having said that I enjoy flying her.  

[airbusflyboy]

49 minutes ago, deanders said:

I was given a 65 M20E that sat for 4 years with a mid time engine. I spent a year and a half restoring her completely including paint, interior, fuel bladders, avionics, gear over and prop overhaul. I didn't overhaul the engine but did overhaul or replace all the accessories. I'm an A&P so labor was free and I still spent $85,000.00. If I had to do it over again I would pass on it.  Having said that I enjoy flying her.  

Yes sir ............. I am getting lots of warning on that very subject, and your labor was free !!! Thank you for the advice .................

[airbusflyboy]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

If someone else, in some other plane, either intentionally or in error, got into the system as "your" plane I suppose the owner info came from the registration and not from the flight plan. 

Yea not sure how this could happen as the aircraft is current with FAA registration to the present owners, I would rather believe the guy helping them sell it, I sent a notification to Flight Aware telling them of this anomaly, but who know ................. ???

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

A local flight school replaced the engine in their trainer because it had reached TBO.  The plane flew fine and the engine wasn't making metal.  The "factory reman" engine was a nightmare and they lost a year while they worked the bugs out of a "new" engine that wasn't quite the same as what the plane came with but the engine manufacturer had made "improvements". 

Every engine is a gamble, always be vigilant with your pre-flight and go fly anyway.

I'm in full agreement with you Jim. I think this is excellent advice. I intend to fly right past TBO as if it didn't exist and only overhaul when my engine tell me it's time.

So in this case, I'm not concerned about the hours, years, TBO, etc. I'm concerned about the lack of use. Lycoming engines are not known for resisting corrosion when they sit. I would want to take a look at every lobe on the cam, look at each of the valves, and in each of the cylinders. While inspecting valves and cylinders is pretty easy with a scope and someone who knows what to look for, inspecting the cam is a bit more intrusive (expensive) and typically outside the scope of a pre-buy inspection. Even sitting inside here in Dallas, I think it's unlikely it's survived 10 years without corroding.

[Greg Ellis]

On 5/25/2018 at 9:58 PM, airbusflyboy said:

One thing of weirdness tonight ............ I did a search on FLIGHTAWARE.COM and found that this N number was used for a flight in 2015 down in Florida .......... the N number was correct as Flight Aware also posts the Registration info , the aircraft is out of annual since 2009 and has been sitting in the hangar ever since, has not moved .............. So, how does this information get posted on Flight Aware in 2015 when the aircraft is sitting in the hangar ??? I queried the seller about this find and assured me that the aircraft has not moved out of the hangar since 2009. Is FLIGHTAWARE correct in its data or is it possible that someone used this guy's N number to make a flight down in Florida ? I am going to investigate a bit on this.

Not sure about Flightaware.  My Dad and a partner owned a Cessna 340.  It had a gear collapse about 8 years ago and has not flown since (very long story).  I know this for a fact.  When you check the FAA website the tail number and registration is for a Cessna 340.  When you query Flightaware it says it is an Aerostar which last flew 7 years ago in Florida.  Which it definitely is not even according to the registration with the FAA.

[TexMooney]

I am an A&P IA and my hobby is resurrecting forgotten planes. The most difficult thing I come across is not mechanical but psychological. When I go to sell a plane that had previously sat (one Mooney 10 yrs, one Piper Warrior 15) its almost impossible to convince buyers that the engine wont disintegrate and the wings won't fall off. I agree with several of the other post that the biggest issue with Lycomings sitting is the high position of the cam shaft. If you pull all cylinders and they look good, cam looks good, it's probably good. I always overhaul or replace all engine accessories and flush the entire fuel system. All hoses need to be changed as well. Just assume if the climate is dry enough to protect the engine, it will rot any rubber on the plane. I am usually shocked to find the avionics working after all that time! I also agree that if you have to pay someone else to do most of the grunt work not to mention the liability of sighing off an engine when the manufacture suggest a calendar overhaul date (be sure to check all AD's engine and airframe and mandatory SB's), it may not be worth it. It's not rocket science but common sense is needed. Good luck!

[jetdriven]

It’s not the cam you need to focus on, it’s the lifters. I think in the large majority of the time the spalling starts there.