flying characteristics between a 201 vs the m20E

[MATTS875]

Just curious as to how the 201 will handle compared the the E model I had. The E was a great plane but turbulence was tough at times.

[jaylw314]

The both have the same wing area, but the J is heavier, so the wing loading is greater.  Higher wing loading results in less acceleration in turbulence.  Granted, if you take an empty J and a fully loaded E, the situation might be reversed, but generally the J will be somewhat more comfortable.

[Bob_Belville]

The E is "shorter coupled" which might make it less stable in the pitch axis but I doubt that there's a lot of difference. When @Danb dropped me off at MRN on our way home from Sun 'n Fun his longer, heavier Bravo bounced us around a little in what was reported as a 3 knot breeze. 

[MATTS875]

I flew with a friend of mine that has a Comanche 250 and it handles great, but I am still a mooney fan

 

[M016576]

That all depends on the scope of your experience.

in general, they do not handle appreciably different to one another.  If all you know is a few Mooney’s and maybe a Cessna or two, you might find them to be a bit more different..  If you’ve flown 40-50 different planes, then you’ll find them exceptionally similar to one another (as you will with all Mooney’s).  

This being a Mooney forum, some will probably claim I’m a heretic for not saying that the flight characteristics of each model are entirely unique... but when you get down to brass tacks: all Mooney’s, at a similar weight, stall within 10 knots of one another.  All exhibit similar stall characteristics.  All have a near identical turn rate and radius. And all have a near identical roll rate and control feel once trimmed.  The long bodies, rocket And Missile require a bit more up trim (heavier nose), but when in trim, the weight on the controls is very similar with common air loads.

now- within that “inch” of an aerodynamic performance window variety, guys will tell you there is a mile of difference.  Really, the main differences are in cruise performance, climb rates and fuel efficiency- all of which directly relating to the engine hung on the front.  And the E/J are practically identical there.

[M016576]

  On 4/23/2018 at 11:22 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

Yes, unfortunately my experience is all very much limited to SEL GA. The question was much narrower in scope than that, though. Of course we are talking about nuances here.  

Jim

C-150

C-152

C-172

C-175

C-R182

C-206

C-210

M20C

M20J

PA-18

PA-28-180

BE77

RV-6

Great Lakes 2T-IA-2

Pitts S2C

 

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That’s a great collection of planes to have flown!

edit: @bluehighwayflyermy post wasn’t directed at you, btw- although since it’s the next one in line, it does appear that way, and I apologize for that.  I wrote the post solely in response to the OP.  I think what we are both saying is in line with one another: an E and a J are going to fly similarly

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by M016576

[RobertGary1]

When people ask me how many different types I’ve flown I always just count all Mooney’s as 1. They’re pretty much the same. Not a whole lot different than different models of 182 

-Robert

[MATTS875]

Thanks to everyone for the insight. Excited to start looking for the J

[carusoam]

Something else to look forward to, Matt...

I went from 180hp C to 280hp O then 310hp O...

Regarding Flying Characterisitics...

There is a huge difference in some areas and completely nothing different in other areas....

1) a fully loaded Long Body compared to a completely empty short body...  I can’t push/pull the long body very far...

2) The 310 hp Long Body with GPSS flies smoothly in flat air... like a shortbody with GPSS...

3) in small bumps the heavy wing loading makes a slight difference.

4) In big bumps, slowing to maneuvering speed... the long body has a nicer yellow arc... the passengers repeat the same prayers in either

5) Putting the tail really far back... the oscillations in the bumps aren’t as big...

6) What the 310hp Long Body is good at... T/O, climb, cruise... getting away from the bumps...

7) Slow flight... one is measured in mph the other in kias...

8) Steep turns... both are well behaved at 60° banks...

9) What makes the biggest difference... the PIC...  get some really good training in your plane and see how it really handles...  are you familiar with MAPA?

After you have a decade in the J...  you might consider the O, before retiring with the E....

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

They all fly pretty much the same except the Rocket. It is a bit more trouble in pitch.

[KLRDMD]

  On 4/24/2018 at 1:12 AM, bluehighwayflyer said:

This is a forum of Mooney enthusiasts for Mooney enthusiasts and does anyone here actually think that all Mooneys fly the same?  They don’t.  My experience might be limited to C and J models but I can definitely decern a difference and I tried to convey them.

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They don't all fly the same but there is much greater similarity between models than differences among them.

[Piloto]

The J model has an extended fuselage and rudder below the horizontal stabilator. This makes the J easier to recover on a spin and more controllable on cross wind landings than the M20C, E

José

[carusoam]

Adding to José’s thoughts...

1) the M20B had a short rudder and a short rudder throw...

2) the C got the longer throw, but didn’t get the extended rudder until after 1965...

3) Some Bs have had their rudder throw improved over the years...

4) Slips are not recommended in Long bodies,  well executed slips in an M20C are fantastic.  No harsh control inputs allowed... think smooooooth...

5) Some Mooneys have speed brakes.

6) E-ticket ride...   E descents with speed brakes, gear down, (and cross controls?)... maintaining gear down speed, You will be landing in a handful of minutes...

7) E-ticket rides from the flight levels may take a few minutes more....

These things alter a few things regarding handling...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Check with a CFI before using any of these ideas, especially near the ground...

Best regards,

-a-

[bradp]

@Piloto didn’t you have to spin a J for the tank STC? 

[DXB]

  On 4/24/2018 at 3:06 AM, carusoam said:

 the C got the longer throw, but didn’t get the extended rudder until after 1965...

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Yes to be exact it was in '69.  Someone here previously suggested the motivation was simply to homogenize  the parts with the mid body F and G and not necessarily any deficit in rudder authority for the short bodies, which makes sense to me.  

[M20JFlyer]

I have a question: when talking Mooney wing .. who is the custodian of history for the twisted wing. 

What little I know is the 180 HP G and 200 HP F both shared this wing, as a compromise to speed up certification if Mooney included the Positive Control 

Some say the twisted wing was only built in 1967 and slowed the plane 3-4 knots.

I owned and flew a 67 F model (Executive) for 31 years. The logs show 3,844 Hrs unbalanced Lyc.IO-360 A1A twice field overhauled . Always hangared when home.    

1. Left Kerrville w  electric gear and what has been named the  twisted wing ...operated with Ram Air above 5K, ROP,... 14 years of grass balance paved runway.

2.I experienced NO problems with dukes fast elec gear and treated one lower inspection panel on left tank in 31 yrs. ( Top ur tank at every stop) wet tanks live longer 

 Why do i bother with this story

3. The unbalanced IO-360 with the round tip mccauley prop will outperform any normal aspirated J 

The 1967 F is the Better Short field or soft field numbers ..better slow flight and easier to land than the J ...when loaded with equal weight.

Let the games and naysayers begin

I Love my 91-J   IT"S a fantastic plane    

 

[carusoam]

Jflyer...

The actual custodian of history... is probably Larry Ball and his Daughter (Tracy) who is working on an update to ‘those remarkable Mooneys’   

 

 

Twisted wing was a manufacturing method to change the profile of the wing...

Not a bad idea...

Other plane manufacturers  currently do the same, with step changes in the composite wing’s shape... take a look at a cirrus wing...

The advantage of the two different profiles is in the stall characteristics...  part of the wing stalls at a higher speed than the rest of the wing, providing better control before the full stall occurs...

Aerodynamic cost isn’t very much, but the stall control isn’t greatly improved either...

Good Transition Training provides a pretty good buffer for new Mooney pilots

Stall strips, and stall warning horns work pretty well to notify all mooney pilots of impending stall issues.

Slow flight and continued practice, always helps pilots keep a good feel for the plane.

these are just PP thoughts not related to Mr. Ball’s book...

 

Go ahead and poke the bear... 

Best regards,

-a-

[DonMuncy]

  On 4/24/2018 at 7:04 PM, carusoam said:

 

 

Stall strips, and stall warning horns work pretty well to notify all mooney pilots of impending stall issues.

 

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I was under the impression that the stall strips were just to slightly modify the wing aerodynamics, so both wings would stall at the same time. So one wing wouldn't drop before the other. I heard that they taped the stall strips in place and test flew the plane, then moved the strips until it achieved the proper stall characteristics, then attached them in place. Am I wrong.

[carusoam]

Don,

Expect the stall buffet you feel is generated by lift coming and going in the small areas around the strips... the lift is affected as the airflow split line  trips over the stall strips... in just those small areas...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI or aero engineer.   See if Scott from Kansas knows better...?

Best regards,

-a-

[DonMuncy]

So you are saying the buffet occurs because the wing starts to stall, drops a hair, un-stalls a bit, drops a hair, etc. And the stall strip, being sharper than the curvature of the wing, accentuates that buffet. I had never thought about that.  I am not knowledgeable about it either. Only what I have heard and read.

[carusoam]

The strips are only a foot or so wide... on 35’ or so of lifting wing...

So when the small amount of lift is inhibited, you get a shudder... everything else is still working..

Kind of like somebody knocking on the door, enough to be noticeable...  but easy enough to not react to if it comes as a surprise...

During construction, Mooney (at least used to back in the day) adjusted the location of some stall strips the same way stall sensors get adjusted...

Pp thoughts as usual...

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

  On 4/24/2018 at 7:25 PM, DonMuncy said:

I was under the impression that the stall strips were just to slightly modify the wing aerodynamics, so both wings would stall at the same time. So one wing wouldn't drop before the other. I heard that they taped the stall strips in place and test flew the plane, then moved the strips until it achieved the proper stall characteristics, then attached them in place. Am I wrong.

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IIRC, the stall strips cause that inboard section to stall earlier, so you'll feel the stall buffeting before the outboard section with the ailerons stalls (bad).

Aerodynamically, I assume the placement of something "rough" or "edgy" above the stagnation line triggers boundary layer separation before it otherwise would.  Not an engineer, so I might just be talking pseudo-scientific gobbledy-gook

[ArtVandelay]

Mine are exactly same size, same position. If you gently approach the stall you will feel it, in the real world stalls, not so helpful, and I like to know how much they are slowing me down.

[BaldEagle]

  On 4/23/2018 at 9:31 PM, MATTS875 said:

Just curious as to how the 201 will handle compared the the E model I had. The E was a great plane but turbulence was tough at times.

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I used to own an E, and recently purchased a J.  Handling characteristics are nearly identical, and just to prove the point I purchased my J with 0 time in type but the insurance company took my E time in lieu of any J time* and only asked for a checkout with a Mooney CFI when I picked it up. (I was expecting 10 hours transition training).

* My insurance agent did point out that this was unusual, so I'm guessing the underwriter must know Mooneys.

[jaylw314]

  On 4/24/2018 at 10:37 PM, teejayevans said:

Mine are exactly same size, same position. If you gently approach the stall you will feel it, in the real world stalls, not so helpful, and I like to know how much they are slowing me down.

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I imagine since the are close to the stagnation line during cruise, that the don't affect drag that much