Marvel Mystery oil

[TheTurtle]

So I have 5 gallons of the stuff that came with the hangar.  I used it on all kinds of things including a chevy 350 to flush it out.  I was reading about people using it in engine oil and in fuel as a cleaner.  I've heard miracle stories of it cleaning out carbon and gunk etc etc when put in the oil.  Cleaning plugs and injectors when put in fuel.

I've also read it does nothing.  I haven't read that it's harmful...

I need to change my oil this weekend and I was thinking of putting some in and going for a short hop to warm up the engine before draining it.

My thoughts are do I really want to cleanout the carbon and gunk?  It's currently not leaking and runs fine.  Dont touch what aint broke?

Other though was how much to add to engine oil.  How much to gas?  If I do do it I was just going to put it in one tank which only has about 15 gallons in it now.

thoughts?  Wives tale?  Worth doing if you aren't buying the MMO?  Worth doing if you did have to pay for the MMO?  

Is this going to turn into a camguard debate 

[EricJ]

I had an issue several months ago that was potentially a sticky valve.   Multiple A&Ps recommended MMO in the oil, and one particularly reputable/respectable shop recommend putting it in the fuel.   I'm told it's very common in the smaller Continental engines (e.g., O-300 ) to put it in the oil to minimize valve issues.     A quart in with the oil seems to be the recommendation, on Continentals as part of the oil change, and on something like an (I)O-360, a few hours before an oil change.     I put a half quart in the fresh oil at an oil change and a LOT of black stuff got loosened up.   Didn't seem to hurt anything at all and operationally I couldn't tell any difference.

Searching around a bit should give some guidance as to how much to put in fuel if your'e so inclined.   Apparently that's good for intake valve issues and injectors.   I haven't tried that, but wouldn't be afraid to if I had an issue that might benefit from it.

[carusoam]

If you believe in using unapproved substances... you won’t be alone.

https://mooneyspace.com/search/

-a-

[aviatoreb]

20 minutes ago, carusoam said:

If you believe in using unapproved substances... you won’t be alone.

https://mooneyspace.com/search/

-a-

Maple syrup isn't approved for my engine either.

[Hank]

42 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Maple syrup isn't approved for my engine either.

But it is for my belly! May have to make some pancakes this weekend . . . .

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

But it is for my belly! May have to make some pancakes this weekend . . . .

We had waffles for dinner tonight... I love breakfast for dinner. 

[ArtVandelay]

If you do a YouTube search, there is a video of a guy that uses it on a lawnmower engine, and it does clean the engine.
I would not put it in the fuel tanks because it could harm the sealant.
I only use it on the last flight before oil change
It does seem to work for me.

[MBDiagMan]

Modern fuel and much more so, lubricant, is a wonderful balance of additives.  An additive of any kind upsets that balance.  If you or your mechanic know more about additives than the company that blends these great fuels and lubricants we have today, then you are probably capable of coming up with an improved liquid for your tanks and crankcase.

For me, although I have done quite a lot of reading about fuel, lubricants and additives, I don’t consider myself qualified to improve on what the oil companies produce.  In extreme situations, like HEAVY carbon or slushing in an engine for which I do not depend on for the life of myself or my family, I will take extreme measures.  That rules out experimentation with the fuel/lubricants in my aircraft engines.

My $0.02,

P.S.  There is much good information and myth busting to be found at: bobistheoilguy.com.  The forum there is filled with opinion, but there are articles there that are written by folks who know a massive amount about the subject.  MB

 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

Modern fuel and much more so, lubricant, is a wonderful balance of additives.  An additive of any kind upsets that balance.  If you or your mechanic know more about additives than the company that blends these great fuels and lubricants we have today, then you are probably capable of coming up with an improved liquid for your tanks and crankcase.

For me, although I have done quite a lot of reading about fuel, lubricants and additives, I don’t consider myself qualified to improve on what the oil companies produce.  In extreme situations, like HEAVY carbon or slushing in an engine for which I do not depend on for the life of myself or my family, I will take extreme measures.  That rules out experimentation with the fuel/lubricants in my aircraft engines.

My $0.02,

P.S.  There is much good information and myth busting to be found at: bobistheoilguy.com.  The forum there is filled with opinion, but there are articles there that are written by folks who know a massive amount about the subject.  MB

 

Your argument assumes that the oil company optimized the mix for optimal efficacy.  But it may be they did so with an extra constraint, which is cost, and that they could have made an even better mix but the price would have been higher than their perception of what the general market would bear, even if you would.

[Browncbr1]

My uncle has operated a c401 for 35 years and Beech 18 before that.  He swears by MMO.  He also runs it in boats.  I tried it on an old outboard I had and it seemed to run smoother and smoke less after using for about 30 minutes.   He swears it will unstick rings and valves.

 

 I’ve not used it in my mooney mainly because I don’t want to fix something that isn’t broken.   I put an additive into my truck oil years ago to clean the engine before an oil change and it ate seals and gaskets and I had all kinds of new leaks.  Ever since then, I tend to think that a little bit of nastiness is good for gaskets and seals to keep functioning.  

Edited March 3, 2018 by Browncbr1

[MBDiagMan]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Your argument assumes that the oil company optimized the mix for optimal efficacy.  But it may be they did so with an extra constraint, which is cost, and that they could have made an even better mix but the price would have been higher than their perception of what the general market would bear, even if you would.

Very good point until you read the ingredients of MMO.  It is primarily kerosene.  The oil companies could add kerosene to their engine oil and reduce their production cost per quart.  If it improved that quart of oil it would be a great way to increase profit.

[jetdriven]

I think it does help keep the ring belts clean.  If you are having a hint of sticking valves MMO I’ve seen prevent that for a little while but the real fix isn’t hard and it’s a good fix. @cnoe showed me how. Drop the valves into the cylinder and ream the carbon from the guides. 

[cnoe]

So I have 5 gallons of the stuff that came with the hangar.  I used it on all kinds of things including a chevy 350 to flush it out.  I was reading about people using it in engine oil and in fuel as a cleaner.  I've heard miracle stories of it cleaning out carbon and gunk etc etc when put in the oil.  Cleaning plugs and injectors when put in fuel. I've also read it does nothing.  I haven't read that it's harmful... I need to change my oil this weekend and I was thinking of putting some in and going for a short hop to warm up the engine before draining it.

My thoughts are do I really want to cleanout the carbon and gunk?  It's currently not leaking and runs fine.  Dont touch what aint broke?

Other though was how much to add to engine oil.  How much to gas?  If I do do it I was just going to put it in one tank which only has about 15 gallons in it now.

thoughts?  Wives tale?  Worth doing if you aren't buying the MMO?  Worth doing if you did have to pay for the MMO?  

Is this going to turn into a camguard debate 

 

 

I agree with the opinion that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. But I’ll admit to having added MMO to my crankcase at the first sign of a sticky valve as recommended by my IA. But as [mention=7887]jetdriven[/mention] pointed out I wouldn’t consider it a permanent solution. The prescribed amount is 20% of total oil volume (so roughly a quart MMO & 4-5 qts. of oil). As far as adding it to my fuel tank(s), I sure wouldn’t. Kerosene and jet-A are similar aren’t they and we’ve all heard how great it is to add jet-A to our 100LL.

 

 

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[jetdriven]

MMO lowers octane and the IO360 is already bumping close to detonation margins in certain circumstances 

[N201MKTurbo]

AFAIK MMO is just a light mineral oil with solvents. I believe the solvents are mineral spirits and kerosene.

It will dissolve some of the gunk in your engine. Sometimes it is best to let the gunk stay where it is.

If I were to use it I would put it in a few hours of flight time before an oil change. I wouldn't run it all the time.

I have been restoring my old dirt bike and cleaning a lot of parts with decades of gunk. I've tried  both gasoline and mineral spirits. they seem to have about the same solvent qualities. Considering that some old engines had systems to add avgas to the oil for cold weather operations, it seems like a safe thing to do. It seems like adding a cup or so of avgas to your oil would probably work as well as MMO to loosen the gunk. It is just the CB in me talking.

 

[carusoam]

One way to look at things...

A guy knowledgeable in plastics and rubber would look at what happens when the Mooney polymer parts are bathed in the MMO.

It may work, but , what else can happen...

Some Solvents and polymers don’t always go very well together... rubber tends to swell when it accidently adsorbs a solvent.

How Many rubber or plastic parts will be in contact with the MMO?

How important are the rubber parts that may sluff off...

Where do the tiny bits of rubber end up...

Some Polymer materials used in Mooneys...

• Fuel cap orings
• tank sealant
• plastic floats
• rubber hose between the tank and fuel line
• rubber lined hose before the fuel injection system

There are a couple of filters and screens down stream of all these, accept the last hose before the fuel injectors.  This hose has had bits of rubber come off and block an injector.

All stuff I have read about on MS.

If there is an approval process, it would probably use actual parts or samples of the same material to determine the effect of being soaked in the MMO.

Without this data it is hard to be comfortable using it...

Putting it in the fuel seems to be the worst way to use it.  It stays an indefinite period of time. On parts that are hard to inspect. The effect of a lowered octane rating can be pretty detrimental.

putting it in the oil system can be a short term effect, with the same challenges... how many rubber parts are contacted...? Gaskets, orings and seals, to rubber hose oil return lines from the valve covers...

If you have ever seen an o-ring made of improper material used on the gas caps... they grow about a 1/4” larger and become unable of sealing water out of the tank.

My ‘65C was acquired with fuel cap O-rings that we’re swollen... (a hint of prior owner misdeeds)

PP thoughts only. Not a mechanic.

At least we have MS to discuss the pros and cons of these ideas...  the power of MS!

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

it seems like a safe thing to do. It seems like adding a cup or so of avgas to your oil would probably work as well as MMO to loosen the gunk. It is just the CB in me talking.
 

Avgas contains lead, probably have enough lead without adding more.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

Avgas contains lead, probably have enough lead without adding more.

The current formulation has about 2gm/gal, hardly enough to worry about. You will probably get more from blow by. Besides, you will be changing the oil soon anyway and it will all go out the drain.

[tigers2007]

I think it does help keep the ring belts clean.  If you are having a hint of sticking valves MMO I’ve seen prevent that for a little while but the real fix isn’t hard and it’s a good fix. [mention=11273]cnoe[/mention] showed me how. Drop the valves into the cylinder and ream the carbon from the guides. 

Shameless hijack: What would it cost to have a pro do the valve wobble test and/or ream out all of the valves?

The guy who bought my C150 added MMO and claimed it stopped having the hiccups... Caveat emptor on the snake oil.

MMO use plus CamGuard plus ElectroAir ignition = 10,000hr TBO?


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[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

 

Shameless hijack: What would it cost to have a pro do the valve wobble test and/or ream out all of the valves?

The guy who bought my C150 added MMO and claimed it stopped having the hiccups... Caveat emptor on the snake oil.

MMO use plus CamGuard plus ElectroAir ignition = 10,000hr TBO?


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We are part 91, you can run that engine as long as you like!

IMHO that's what MMO is for. It is for getting a few more hours out of a tired old engine.

[DXB]

There's lots of anecdotes in favor of MMO having some limited utility as an addition to the oil shortly before oil change or for sticking valves. I've as yet to hear anecdotes of it causing harm in this application.  If it cleans up deposits on exhaust valve seats and guides, I'd certainly be willing to use it. I've removed 3 cylinders in the past two annuals for exhaust valve leaks with guide wear.   It's a shame that it hasn't been shown empirically to do this in well controlled experiments.  It doesn't seem that doing so would be too hard.  

[cnoe]

Shameless hijack: What would it cost to have a pro do the valve wobble test and/or ream out all of the valves?

The guy who bought my C150 added MMO and claimed it stopped having the hiccups... Caveat emptor on the snake oil.

MMO use plus CamGuard plus ElectroAir ignition = 10,000hr TBO?


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Sadly I had great difficulty finding a mechanic/facility to do this after experiencing morning sickness at startup during a trip to Colorado. In and around the 4th largest city in the U.S. not a single mechanic I contacted was amenable to performing this simple work, not even my regular (old school) A&P/IA. Having never done it before it took me a day and a half. I’d expect a shop familiar with the process to take 4-6 hours, but that’s just a guess.


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[tigers2007]

This is ridiculous. I might buy my IA the tool and learn how to do the job with him.


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[Yetti]

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/82049503

 

[jetdriven]

I thought it was supposed to be a .4995 reamer for the IO360?