The engine overhaul

[gitmo234]

Getting updates from the progress of my overhaul. Engine is disassembled and ready to be taken to Tulsa. Looks like this was coming due for awhile. From the mechanic:

I finished disassembling your engine and getting everything ready to deliver to Tulsa. Everything came apart as expected. I found severe carbon oil deposits inside the engine and a buildup of sludge inside the crankshaft Journals. I also found that the cylinder barrels were severely worn as I expected. The camshaft and followers show signs of excessive wear as well. There is signs of excessive blow by past the pistons. The main bearings have a lot of ware on them as well. The crankcase has several loose fitting through bolts and sings of fretting. Overall this is a tired engine in need of this overhaul.

 

Glad it's being done. 

[jasona900]

How much time was on the engine?  Did you notice anything abnormal on your engine monitor that could have provided clues that it was time to overhaul?

 

 

[gitmo234]

the engine had about 1100 hours SMOH. Nothing unusual on the engine monitor that I noticed, but I'm not overly proficient at reading them. There were other signs that individually dont mean much, but put together pointed toward it being bad. 3 out of 3 cylinders had been replaced in <10 years, and the oil analysis was showing some metal but it was written off as coming from cylinders with <100 hours on them. 

Finally, I thought I had screwed up on a preflight and forgotten to check oil that was severly low. I topped it up and kept flying/kept an eye on it and the oil turned super black and burned off fast but not mind boggling fast. I had it checked out by a mechanic after that and he made the call/prediction it was done. 

 

[MIm20c]

I’m sorry to hear this but I’m glad you had it checked over. Looks like it was a good decision.  I actually talked to the previous owner when looking for a plane and I remember looking over the logs, I feel like this could have easily be me looking at overhaul shops. 

[gitmo234]

Funny you should mention that. I'm sure you remember the logs seemed pretty okay, and it had a good pedigree. Someone else here notice and pointed it out to me, that for the last few years the mechanic had been servicing it 2+ quarts lower on oil that what it should've been. When I was scanning them I read "blah blah, filled with oil...blah blah good compression". 

That was another clue that I was able to put together after the fact. I was prepped for the overhaul, so honestly, it sucks but its not a big deal either. Worst part is it being down for awhile. Best part is a 0 time engine. 

I had some digital currency investments that are now paying for a good portion of it too. 

Here's a pic of the preliminary looking for metal

[carusoam]

Nice pics, Gitmo...

Any photos of the valves?  They can be interesting some times...

The fun is just around the corner.... break-in flights...

Good to read up on...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

What are your idea for overhaul? Named shop? Field overhaul by your A&P? Exchange the engine? All can be good or bad depends on how they're done. 

I'm an A&P and I did mine 10 years and 1100 hrs ago and its still going strong with no issues. 

If your cylinders are not first run I'd just buy a "matched" set from Lycoming. I did that and I'm pleased. The bottom end can be done fairly easily. Divco for the case, any good engine shop for the other stuff ( grind -10 on the crank, reface lifters and cam, rod work). Reassemble and fly. Not rocket science but one MUST follow the Lyc overhaul book to the letter. Or? Get an exchange. Or? Send it to any number of good overhaul shops. 

How much time on the prop? How many years since apart? How old is the governor?

New mags and harness? How old is the fuel system? Always a new engine driven fuel pump. Don't forget engine mounts. Lots to think about. 

Do follow the Lycoming break-in procedure.

Keep us informed of your progress.  Good attitudes need to prevail. Just think of how nice it will be when done. Maybe unplanned but nice. 

[Guest]

With the metal on your magnet, you need to flush, replace or overhaul all of the parts containing oil.  The prop, the governor, the hoses, and the oil cooler.

Clarence

[gitmo234]

On 12/12/2017 at 6:39 AM, M20Doc said:

With the metal on your magnet, you need to flush, replace or overhaul all of the parts containing oil.  The prop, the governor, the hoses, and the oil cooler.

Clarence

They're taking care of this with the overhaul. The shop doing it mentioned that to me during some preliminaries.

[jetdriven]

 A lot of people of had to redo their engine sometimes very soon after overhaul because of reground lifters. And the new lifters are no guarantee that Spalling doesn’t occur very soon again either. However the new Lycoming carbide lifters appear to be immune to this. 

This is from my friends 600 SMOh engine. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by jetdriven

[N6758N]

3 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

 A lot of people of had to redo their engine sometimes very soon after overhaul because of reground lifters. And the new lifters are no guarantee that Spalling doesn’t occur very soon again either. However the new Lycoming carbide lifters appear to be immune to this. 

I'm not even sure why anyone would reuse a cam or lifters doing an overhaul. The prices of these components from Lycoming are actually very reasonable, not worth saving a little bit of money and then end up like your friend above...^^

[jetdriven]

One friend of mine paid for new Lifters and camshaft and after 200 hours it spalls out and he looks at the invoice and the part number ends in a -R.  He calls the overhaul shop and they used reground lifters. They told him it’s the same price and same quality and no difference at all so basically he got screwed. His third engine seems to be doing OK now. Bottom line absolutely verify that Lycoming DLC lifters went into the engine. 

[Sabremech]

34 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

 A lot of people of had to redo their engine sometimes very soon after overhaul because of reground lifters. And the new lifters are no guarantee that Spalling doesn’t occur very soon again either. However the new Lycoming carbide lifters appear to be immune to this. 

This is from my friends 600 SMOh engine. 

I thought with Camguard, this spalling wasn’t possible? 

[jetdriven]

I never said that. But I did say it was an anti corrosive agent and helps extend the time between flying before corrosion sets in to around 14 days vs as little as 3. Perhaps they need to make an extra strength version for the IO360 since just about every one spalls out. 

[Yetti]

highly polished metal surfaces take a long time to start rusting.   That is one of the fallacies of the camguard pictures.

[Sabremech]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I never said that. But I did say it was an anti corrosive agent and helps extend the time between flying before corrosion sets in to around 14 days vs as little as 3. Perhaps they need to make an extra strength version for the IO360 since just about every one spalls out. 

Hi Byron,

I know you didn’t say it, but had to jab Camguard as we see plenty of spalling regardless of whether it’s used or not. I still believe it’s all metallurgy and you either have a good cam or not. No additive is going to save that metal in the operating environment that these engines are in. 

[gitmo234]

7 minutes ago, N6758N said:

I'm not even sure why anyone would reuse a cam or lifters doing an overhaul. The prices of these components from Lycoming are actually very reasonable, not worth saving a little bit of money and then end up like your friend above...^^

Agree with this. I wasnt planning on this but was well prepared financially. I've asked him about a handful of additions for the future and other stuff I wanted done as well

[N6758N]

Just to be clear on what @jetdriven is saying, the picture he posted above is of the tappet bodies, not the lifters themselves. The tappets are what spall along with the Cam. I bought a brand new cam for $700 and tappet bodies (can't remember the price now) for my engine in 2015 from Lycoming.

[jetdriven]

35 minutes ago, Yetti said:

highly polished metal surfaces take a long time to start rusting.   That is one of the fallacies of the camguard pictures.

Guys have put lifter bodies in humid cabinets and in a dried out box and the one clearly is rusted and one is not. 

[Andy95W]

23 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Guys have put lifter bodies in humid cabinets and in a dried out box and the one clearly is rusted and one is not. 

Yes, but if it's a shitty forging or bad metallurgy they're going to spall regardless.

[Sabremech]

31 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Guys have put lifter bodies in humid cabinets and in a dried out box and the one clearly is rusted and one is not. 

That’s not represebtative of the engine environment, nor is putting lawn furniture outside with Camguard on some metal and other metal without and proclaiming it will prevent corrosion. No Doh, but prove it to us with 20 + year old engines operating in different environments. Oops, that doesn’t generate any revenue for 20 + years, so can’t do that! We’ll just call it good and proceed to market it as the cam savior! 

[PTK]

On 12/13/2017 at 3:06 PM, Sabremech said:

That’s not represebtative of the engine environment, nor is putting lawn furniture outside with Camguard on some metal and other metal without and proclaiming it will prevent corrosion. No Doh, but prove it to us with 20 + year old engines operating in different environments. Oops, that doesn’t generate any revenue for 20 + years, so can’t do that! We’ll just call it good and proceed to market it as the cam savior! 

Hence my coining the term scam-guard... i.e. perfectly good Federal Reserve notes down the used oil bucket! 

 

[cnoe]

One friend of mine paid for new Lifters and camshaft and after 200 hours it spalls out and he looks at the invoice and the part number ends in a -R.  He calls the overhaul shop and they used reground lifters. They told him it’s the same price and same quality and no difference at all so basically he got screwed. His third engine seems to be doing OK now. Bottom line absolutely verify that Lycoming DLC lifters went into the engine. 

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[Guest]

High valve spring strength, and poorly fitted valves and guides cant be good for the camshaft/ valve tappet interface.  Oil and chemicals can only do so much.

Clarence

[Yetti]

when turning metal in a lathe bit chatter can spall the piece much faster than letting it sit for 3 days.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Yetti