Cheapest/easiest ADS-B option for old-style steam gage M20R (2000)

[PTK]

25 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Yep.  Nothing else to add there.  :-)

Pete, I’m in Lunberton frequently with Angel flights, and just for breakfasts at FlyingW, so happy to take you up and demonstrate the thing if you want, if you haven’t already seen one in action.  Lemme’ know if interested.

That would be great Steven. Thank you. At this point sometime next year. My slot in the shop is in May.

[Marauder]

The info that I have found is that ATAS is a 600$ option (standard on 9000+) that adds audio alerting for ADS-B traffic. It gives  distance, bearing, and relative altitude of threat aircraft. 
Target trend does more than that. It is a dynamic presentation of threat aircraft in relation to each other and own ship. Dynamic in the sense that it shows you live how and where the threat aircraft are moving in relation to own ship. 
Can you confirm Mike that ATAS is similar to this? And what other, as you say, ADS-B in receiver has this? 
Or are these simply two different features?

L-3 has offered the ATAS option free a number of times. I got mine for free for attending a seminar on ADS-B at Oshkosh. Same seminar they offer online.

What makes ATAS different is that you are being told where to look and more importantly it calculates out the probability of collision and will not report things that are not a threat. So you don’t get false positives in the pattern or from planes that look like a threat visually on my Target Trend Garmin Pilot ADS-B.


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[bradp]

Cheapest is a 330ES.  I picked one up for $1600 on beechtalk.  That’s for out.  If I use a GLD-52R for in I believe that’s 95% of the functionality of the GTX-345 box for 1/3 the price.  That’s the cheapest “installed” way.  330ES and a stratux is the cheapest portable in method. 

[KSMooniac]

Cheapest is a 330ES.  I picked one up for $1600 on beechtalk.  That’s for out.  If I use a GLD-52R for in I believe that’s 95% of the functionality of the GTX-345 box for 1/3 the price.  That’s the cheapest “installed” way.  330ES and a stratux is the cheapest portable in method. 

I've got my eye on the GDL-52R as well. Can you share how you installed it and the antennas? Did you hardwire it to any display?

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[PTK]

6 hours ago, bradp said:

Cheapest is a 330ES.  I picked one up for $1600 on beechtalk.  That’s for out.  If I use a GLD-52R for in I believe that’s 95% of the functionality of the GTX-345 box for 1/3 the price.  That’s the cheapest “installed” way.  330ES and a stratux is the cheapest portable in method. 

The only problem is the GDL-52(R) is for experimental and, as you noted, no ADS-B out.

[bradp]

 

48 minutes ago, PTK said:

The only problem is the GDL-52(R) is for experimental and, as you noted, no ADS-B out.

I’m thinking this would be the definition of minor mod.  Same thing as wiring your stratus or GDL-39 to ship power.  

[PTK]

10 minutes ago, bradp said:

 

I’m thinking this would be the definition of minor mod.  Same thing as wiring your stratus or GDL-39 to ship power.  

That sounds great and it’s a good question for the avionics shop. Assuming it can be installed in certified as a minor mod I wonder if it’d be also allowed to display on the GTN?

[KSMooniac]

I was close to buying one this fall but decided to wait a bit longer. My idea was to mount in tail cone, but use potable antennas suction-cupped to a rear window like I currently have with my GDL-39. I'd prefer permanent antennas, though. I also wanted to hardwire audio to my audio panel, and pre-wire for a G3X connection, or PFD-to-be-named-later. I don't think we can connect to a GTN or GNS right now, but it might slide by as a minor mod...

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[MIm20c]

On 12/20/2017 at 12:41 PM, PTK said:

The only problem is the GDL-52(R) is for experimental and, as you noted, no ADS-B out.

How did I miss that. I was just trying to see how the 660 and 52r would work in my panel.  Really looking for a device that will combine the adsb traffic with the tis-a output from my 330es. 

[jlunseth]

The best deal for the least effort is the KT74, if you already have a 76.  It is a slide in replacement for the 76, except your installer has to add the connection to the GPS.  That gives you ADSB Out, and that is all you need for compliance.  It is also a nifty transponder.  Transponders should just work and not be complicated, but let you switch between and IFR code and 1200 without much effort.  The 74 does that.  There are more functions available if you want to dig into the buttonology, but it is definitely not necessary.

If you want ADSB In, the best combination in my view is a Stratus2 and Foreflight or similar on an iPad.  If you already have traffic and weather then I would not bother with "In."  I have XM and like it better than ADSB.  The resolution of ADSB is not as good as XM.    ADSB Traffic is limited to a 30 nm "puck" around the ADSB Out aircraft that triggers the "puck" broadcast (that's you, if you are ADSB Out equipped).  The range of the weather products varies with the type of weather product.  Low-resolution NEXRAD is supposed to be available for the entire country.  However, in practice, I just can't see far enough ahead with the ADSB reports and much prefer XM.  Here is a link to a page on the range of various ADSB weather products: https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/stratusfaq/#q12

If you already have good traffic and weather on the panel, then save yourself the $900 for the Stratus 2.  My decision was that avionics in this area are changing so rapidly I did not want to invest beaucoup bucks for panel mounted products until there is some shaking out, and the Stratus 2 + iPad + Foreflight gives me what I need (mainly traffic).

 

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

If you want ADSB In, the best combination in my view is a Stratus2 and Foreflight or similar on an iPad.  If you already have traffic and weather then I would not bother with "In."  I have XM and like it better than ADSB.  The resolution of ADSB is not as good as XM.    ADSB Traffic is limited to a 30 nm "puck" around the ADSB Out aircraft that triggers the "puck" broadcast (that's you, if you are ADSB Out equipped).  The range of the weather products varies with the type of weather product.  Low-resolution NEXRAD is supposed to be available for the entire country.  However, in practice, I just can't see far enough ahead with the ADSB reports and much prefer XM. 

There is no clear distance/volume limit for FIS-B.  I can pick up regional NEXRAD data for most of the west coast, as well as METAR/TAF data any airport I zoom in on.  I have not seen any technical data on how FIS-B prioritizes data by distance from you (which seems unlikely since you can pick up FIS-B without ADS-B Out), if the data is limited by which local towers you are receiving (seems more likely), or if the data is not limited at all (seems unlikely since there is not unlimited bandwidth).

Anybody know the answer?

Edited December 21, 2017 by jaylw314

[bradp]

I think part of the issue is the regional versus National nexrad depiction on ads-b.  I’m primarily using the nexrad to make strategic decisions about my destination, which is 250 nm or more away fornus cross country flying folk.  So if I see a purple blob near my Airport and I can’t tell if it’s real or artifact, moving to or fro, developing or dissipating, I have difficult making strategic decisions for that 1.5-2 hr look ahead.  This is where people get hung up about the resolution differences between XM and AdsB

[jlunseth]

9 hours ago, bradp said:

I think part of the issue is the regional versus National nexrad depiction on ads-b.  I’m primarily using the nexrad to make strategic decisions about my destination, which is 250 nm or more away fornus cross country flying folk.  So if I see a purple blob near my Airport and I can’t tell if it’s real or artifact, moving to or fro, developing or dissipating, I have difficult making strategic decisions for that 1.5-2 hr look ahead.  This is where people get hung up about the resolution differences between XM and AdsB

Same here.  Living where I do (Minnesota) and traveling west towards the Black Hills and the Rockies, it is fairly common to need to follow what is going on at the destination.  Summer thunderstorm activity is very idiosyncratic.  I’ll take all the detail I can get.

[PTK]

On 12/15/2017 at 10:03 PM, StevenL757 said:

Hi Peter, sure.  Piece by piece...

"The 9000+ provides TAS/TCAS active traffic?"  -  Yes

"What is involved to do this with the 9000+ if do not presently have active traffic in the airplane? Is of an anyenna pirchase or additional enablement costs?"   -  The 9000+ and 9000R+ are the same unit, capability-wise...and priced the same.  Both require the NY164 Skywatch antenna.  If you already have one, you can reuse it and save the additional $2,000.  Additionally, with the 9000+ kit, you'll get a straight or right angle RF transponder antenna, AV-801 GPS/WAAS Antenna, and PIM-9000Wi-Fi Interface Module PIM-9000.  Both "+" and "R+" come with TAS enablement already included, so no additional enablement costs.

"And is active traffic of benefit once we get to the point when most of ga will have ADS-B?"  -  Active traffic is of benefit now, and will continue to be of benefit even if 100% of GA airplanes equip with ADS-B in the future.  Many people still don't understand that ADS-B is a service - and will always be susceptible to drops in coverage...no matter what percentage of the fleet equips.  TAS/TCAS will pick up anything with a Mode-A, C, or S transponder.  It will never be bound by service limitations.

"The unit is available as a remote mounted (NGT9000R+) and can be controlled and display on the GTN!"  -  Correct

"Cost is around 8500$ plus install.  This includes antenna for active traffic TAS/TCAS."  -  Yes.  Planning for $9,000 plus install is reasonable.

"This is about 3K$ more than a GTX 345R which is significant.  But that buys the active traffic.  2K$ of that is cost of antenna."  -  True, and although you can look at it that way, keep in mind that a standalone Skywatch TAS system today runs in the neighborhood of $9,000 - $11,000 plus install, weighs about 20 pounds, and only scans 11nm.  The TAS/TCAS computer in the 9000+ scans up to 35 miles out and tracks more targets simultaneously.  I've spoken with a few engineers at L-3 prior to, and after this box was released, and even they have marvelled as to how they were able to put as much "stuff" in this box that they did, and offer it at the price point they did.

"The question is how relevant will active traffic be once most airplanes are on ADS-B, and, can an active traffic system be installed for 3K$.  The answer to the latter is definitely no.  No where near."  -   Absolutely correct, and having the TAS/TCAS option onboard couldn't be more relevant.  Having both technologies available in one small box will give you - without a doubt - the best and most complete traffic advisory option available to GA.

So - yes, it's more than tempting.  Trust me.

Steve

Steve, while TAS is nice to have it seems to me it would be redundant to an aircraft having ADS-B "in" when everyone is required to have ADS-B out. In other words when all aircraft are broadcasting ADS-B out wouldn't they be seen by aircraft that have ADS-B in? And wouldn't TAS show the same aircraft? I'm talking after the 2020 deadline. 

I agree that it's a service but I think it's only a servive to those who choose to partake of the "in" component. The out component is not a service. It's a requirement. 

Am I correct?

[StevenL757]

You’re correct about the “service” aspect of ADSB, however, even after 1-Jan-2020 comes and goes, there will always be a subset of aircraft not compliant.  I agree having both systems is redundant in a sense, and having both gives the most complete traffic picture available, versus simply being ADSB-equipped only.

Steve

[Hank]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

Steve, while TAS is nice to have it seems to me it would be redundant to an aircraft having ADS-B "in" when everyone is required to have ADS-B out. In other words when all aircraft are broadcasting ADS-B out wouldn't they be seen by aircraft that have ADS-B in? And wouldn't TAS show the same aircraft? I'm talking after the 2020 deadline. 

I agree that it's a service but I think it's only a servive to those who choose to partake of the "in" component. The out component is not a service. It's a requirement. 

Am I correct?

Correction:  when everyone in certain airspace is required to have ADSB Out. I for one do not plan to equip. Maybe someone will come out with a reasonably priced transponder with ADSB In display to replace my G327. But my panel has no room for anything else, and putting in certified panel-mount equipment for Out while relying on an unapproved tablet in my lap or stuck in a window for In is stupid. 

Since I almost never fly in C space anymore, and ATL has never allowed me into their Bravo IFR or VFR, preferring to give me a 30-minute detour (from 7:00 to 1:00 on the Bravo, direct route straight over Hartsfield), there's no need.

So remember to look out your window! That's where I will be . . . . . .

[kortopates]

Correction:  when everyone in certain airspace is required to have ADSB Out. I for one do not plan to equip. Maybe someone will come out with a reasonably priced transponder with ADSB In display to replace my G327. But my panel has no room for anything else, and putting in certified panel-mount equipment for Out while relying on an unapproved tablet in my lap or stuck in a window for In is stupid. 
Since I almost never fly in C space anymore, and ATL has never allowed me into their Bravo IFR or VFR, preferring to give me a 30-minute detour (from 7:00 to 1:00 on the Bravo, direct route straight over Hartsfield), there's no need.
So remember to look out your window! That's where I will be . . . . . .

How much IFR utility will you have left when your IFR flying is limited to below 10K? Even VFR, you won't be able to fly over Hatfield class B if I understood that's what your doing now. That's all way too restrictive out west; especially when all you need is to adsb out.


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[Hank]

21 minutes ago, kortopates said:

How much IFR utility will you have left when your IFR flying is limited to below 10K? Even VFR, you won't be able to fly over Hatfield class B if I understood that's what your doing now. That's all way too restrictive out west; especially when all you need is to adsb out.

I've asked for above 10K exactly once, due to strong westerly winds over the Smoky Mtns while returning from Sun n Fun to WV. Still rather bumpy, and my C doesn't climb well there. But I've only been flying my Mooney a little over 10 years.

While I'd like to go over ATL Bravo, for some reason it goes to 12,500, meaning headed to the Carolinas I'd need to be at 13,500. Soon I plan to climb to 13,500 and fly the distance across the Bravo (60nm) and descend, timing how long I'm above 12,500. My suspicion is that it will be longer than 30 minutes. If not, that's what I'll start doing  wind and weather permitting. 

What I've been doing is diverting whichever way the weather looks best, staying inside the 30nm line but outside the Bravo, dragging my wingtip up the eastern / western edge of the Bravo with my G430 set to 15nm scale. Cancelling flight following would extend the trip a few more miles as I'd have to stay further out; I'm saving that for when the controller who sends me through the Arrival Gate instead of clearing me into the Bravo asks me to descend because I'm in the way . . . since direct through the Bravo would avoid all conflict.

[StevenL757]

So Peter, to further help answer your traffic question, should Jim and/or Hank (as examples) choose not to equip for “out” capability, you would not see them on an ADS-B In-equipped piece of hardware, but would indeed see them on TAS/TCAS.

Steve

[Hank]

51 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

So Peter, to further help answer your traffic question, should Jim and/or Hank (as examples) choose not to equip for “out” capability, you would not see them on an ADS-B In-equipped piece of hardware, but would indeed see them on TAS/TCAS.

Steve

Thank you for looking out for us!

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

So Peter, to further help answer your traffic question, should Jim and/or Hank (as examples) choose not to equip for “out” capability, you would not see them on an ADS-B In-equipped piece of hardware, but would indeed see them on TAS/TCAS.

Steve

This is not entirely correct.  You will still receive the re-broadcast of their primary transponder from the ground based ADS-B transmitter.  The limitation is that this only happens if their standard transponder transmission is received by an ATC radar facility, and that your airplane is receiving the full ADS-B transmission (which means that you have ADS-B Out yourself.).

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Andy95W said:

This is not entirely correct.  You will still receive the re-broadcast of their primary transponder from the ground based ADS-B transmitter.  The limitation is that this only happens if their standard transponder transmission is received by an ATC radar facility, and that your airplane is receiving the full ADS-B transmission (which means that you have ADS-B Out yourself.).

So I will show up on ADSB when I'm IFR or in Flight Following. Which I usually am, but here in the boonies not always if flying local or practicing maneuvers. 

[Marauder]

This is not entirely correct.  You will still receive the re-broadcast of their primary transponder from the ground based ADS-B transmitter.  The limitation is that this only happens if their standard transponder transmission is received by an ATC radar facility, and that your airplane is receiving the full ADS-B transmission (which means that you have ADS-B Out yourself.).

The traffic area around an uncontrolled airport would be a common scenario where TAS would see them and ADSB or ADSB-R wouldn’t.


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[EricJ]

15 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

So Peter, to further help answer your traffic question, should Jim and/or Hank (as examples) choose not to equip for “out” capability, you would not see them on an ADS-B In-equipped piece of hardware, but would indeed see them on TAS/TCAS.

Steve

 

12 hours ago, Andy95W said:

This is not entirely correct.  You will still receive the re-broadcast of their primary transponder from the ground based ADS-B transmitter.  The limitation is that this only happens if their standard transponder transmission is received by an ATC radar facility, and that your airplane is receiving the full ADS-B transmission (which means that you have ADS-B Out yourself.).

My understanding is that if anybody with ADS-B out is around to stimulate a tower transmission, anyone can receive the TIS-B/FIS-B transmissions from the tower and benefit from them, whether they have ADS-B out or not.    I don't have ADS-B out (yet) but get traffic/wx/etc frequently even in remote areas.

I did have a jet (looked like Beech Premier) pass me and turn in front of me the other day while I was between Deer Valley and Scottsdale (so I'm pretty sure he came out of Scottsdale).   The notable part was that I'm sure he saw me because he passed and turned in front me, but he did not show up as ADS-B traffic on my tablet.   This place is always thick with traffic and most of it shows up on the tablet, so it seemed a little strange to me that this guy didn't.   Personally, I'm looking forward to the mandate being complete.

[Cruiser]

My understanding is that most jet/airliner are NOT equipped with ADSB. Almost all of them are equipped with TCAS. The TCAS signal is broadcast on the 1090 frequency so if you have a 1090 ADSB in device it  would detect them.