Family pressures?

[KLRDMD]

7 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

The comments probably say a great deal about your personal experience:

• Nature vs. nurture. Why do some here feel that experience is overrated while others "know" that it is the most important consideration?

Mostly those that don't have the hours/experience think it is overrated and those that do have the hours/experience understand that the first group "doesn't know what they don't know".

[Danb]

9 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

They is no way of knowing if they're all female virgins!!

Clarence

I'll remember to bring the antibiotics 

[Bob_Belville]

2 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Mostly those that don't have the hours/experience think it is overrated and those that do have the hours/experience understand that the first group "doesn't know what they don't know".

Probably mostly true. OTOH, Hank and Paul don't have as many years and hours as you and I do but they're not exactly greenhorns.  

[Andy95W]

54 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

They is no way of knowing if they're all female virgins!!

Clarence

YMMV...

[gsxrpilot]

[AndyFromCB]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

Mostly those that don't have the hours/experience think it is overrated and those that do have the hours/experience understand that the first group "doesn't know what they don't know".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein people of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.^[1]

As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."^[1] Hence, a corollary to the Dunning–Kruger effect is that persons of high ability tend to underestimate their relative competence and erroneously presume that tasks that are easy for them to perform are also easy for other people to perform.^[1]...

^{On the other hand, it is by learning nothing that I stay young}

Edited November 28, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[NJMac]

You've been given much wisdom about your skill set at 70 hours,weather,terrain,etc However .from reading between the lines ,I sense FIL and MIL do not live together anymore (re. Fri / Sat meetings with them)This could all be about MIL restablishing her dominance in their relationship.She has prior flying experience and has formed an opinion that nobody is going to change.I think you placated the FIL but your failure with the MIL may have nothing to do with you ...it simply be a post divorce wierd family dynamic driven by MIL.ps..I'd be interested if I am correct about FIL/MIL status..

Good catch. Yes, they are divorced. The MIL just lost her 2nd husband (more like a father for my wife) within the last 12 months, actually closing in on the anniversary. He used to be A LOT like me with our free spirits and no craps given attitude. That counter balanced and chilled MIL out decently. My wife suggested that now that she doesnt have that counter balance, she will be less restrained in her fears.

I've devided once my mooney is done with the new avionics, ill take this trip solo just so I can see what i don't yet know.

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[Gone]

8 hours ago, AndyFromCB said:

It's 72 but results are not typical, quantity and quality may vary depending on stock availability, no rain checks, "virgins" might actually be manufacturer refurbished models.

Its not "virgins."  It is "Virginians."  They did not know how to spell back in the day.....

Just sayin'    

[Hank]

59 minutes ago, NJMac said:

I've devided once my mooney is done with the new avionics, ill take this trip solo just so I can see what i don't yet know.
 

You're a brave man, going to see your MIL alone. Or will you send the wife ahead and have her pick you up? My wife is very against her driving somewhere that I will fly to, except last summer at the beach when she was able to stay longer she didn't complain about the 8-9 hour drive or meeting me at the airport when I arrived several days later at 2130.

[NJMac]

You're a brave man, going to see your MIL alone. Or will you send the wife ahead and have her pick you up? My wife is very against her driving somewhere that I will fly to, except last summer at the beach when she was able to stay longer she didn't complain about the 8-9 hour drive or meeting me at the airport when I arrived several days later at 2130.

Probably won't see either of them. Just down and back for the sake of the trip. Maybe the FIL, hes 5 mins from KCTJ.

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[kris_adams]

22 hours ago, NJMac said:

I've decided once my mooney is done with the new avionics, ill take this trip solo just so I can see what i don't yet know.

Well let us know when you fly down.  I'm pretty close and always love to meet up with other Mooniacs.

BTW congrats on starting an 8 page (so far) thread.  That's impressive!

[gsxrpilot]

I'm planning to go see my parents in a couple of weeks as I won't be able to see them over the holidays. I called to day and told them I'll likely fly the Mooney. They are very excited and my mother who's not seen this plane, wants a ride. The flight is 988 nautical miles direct. I'll go solo and see if I can do it non-stop.

84R to KTDF

[Browncbr1]

10 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm planning to go see my parents in a couple of weeks as I won't be able to see them over the holidays. I called to day and told them I'll likely fly the Mooney. They are very excited and my mother who's not seen this plane, wants a ride. The flight is 988 nautical miles direct. I'll go solo and see if I can do it non-stop.

84R to KTDF

May the winds be with you!

[bradp]

On 11/28/2017 at 7:26 PM, NJMac said:

no craps given attitude.

Type A works better when in the left seat.  

 

I’m at 700 hrs this week. ~550 of those are in a Mooney.  I think of myself as an aviation fledgling.  I know how to plan a flight to not get myself and family killed.  I ask myself on each departure what could be wrong that could kill us (fuel trim ignition etc).  

 

My dumbest flight by far was one of the first after my instrument rating.  I’ll look it up but it’s gonna be at about 80-90 hrs. I believe it was - over W Virginia with freezing levels and overcast (and layers below) not too far above an MEA, and landing in what would essentially be definitely minimums and arguably worse at night in a rented Cessna with a wonky autopilot.   This was after I made a good decision to stay put the preceding night and get a hotel.  My job now is to emplore you do not do the same stupid shit that I did.  Assume the attitude of the old, not bold pilot now Even when you’re not old.  That is transfer of experience and wisdom.   

 

The best advice I can give you is 1) you won’t really get the gravity of what we do until you personally either know someone who has crashed and perished, or crashed an has been significantly injured.  You think statistics are for others, you are above average, etc until it actually happens to someone you know. 2) We all do dumb shit.  My job is to incorporate everyone else’s dumb shit mistakes by reading about them and attentively listening to them to avoid doing them myself. Read all the flying articles, read NTSB reports (like *all* the airframe specific), read crash talk.  Make yourself known to others and introduced by your SO as the crazy guy who reads NTSB reports.  

 

Develop and abide by your personal mins.  Never fly GA on a schedule that’s not allowing for plus or minus 24 hrs for Weather.  Have plan A, B, and C and be willing to execute each of those plans.  Your wife okay sleeping in the lobby chair of a very dark Airport because you decided on your plan B diversion?  Does she know and understand that GA is unreliable?  Is she willing to rent a car, drive back for 8 hrs, and then drive back fetch the plane. Mine is, does, and has.  Yours needs to as well.  If she doesn’t then flying GA may be for you but perhaps it is not suited for her.  Courtney (my wife) and Nancy (Bobs wife) are some of the most remarkable non pilot significant others I’ve met - and I’m sure they’re more - they just get the responsibility and gravity and shine with flexibility and understanding.  

 

Now that we have one kid here and one kid on the way, those same rules apply and don’t change.  Want to enjoy thanksgiving? Probably go commercial.  Every holiday trip I’ve made that is not straightforward VFR Weather for days and days (I used to live in western PA where every AOPA icing story seems to take place - off some radial from the Altoona VOR), I’d be on my  phone obsessing about whether weather would meet my personal mins, and would I know with 100% assurance that my plans A, B, or C will work out.**  I cancelled a Christmas Day trip after we had the plane packed because we were running late and that busted my Weather window as a front was moving in - that sort of discipline is the only reason I and many of us on the forum have not turned into an NTSB report with the type of flying a lot of us do.  You are a professional pilot or you’re not a pilot at all.  There’s no in between.  

This whole process for gaining experience is like learning to swim.  Take a dip.  Go in a bit further.  Don’t jump in all the way and don’t jump in the deep end before you’re ready.  

Read Sam Wiegel’s column in the December issue of flying.  It’s quite appropriate.  

Make your flying boring and don’t do dumb shit - I already had to look at one Mooney in crash talk for what seems like a pilot who got in over his head on a long cross country stereotypical holiday weekend.  I hate those...  

 

** Edit: something you can do as a relatively new cross country flyer is plan flights that you have no intention of making.  See how the weather pans out.  It’s useful to gain local and regional weather knowledge to not stop at the go/no go decision with two caveats.  One - don’t go back on a decision to not fly once it’s made.  Your no go decision is always the right one - you made it for a reason.  Two - you still need to promise yourself to still gradually expand and occasionally contract your comfort zone.  Overall this exercise will help you with your contingency planning and can instill good habits - what route takes me at what AGL above terrain, what are the alternatives, where is the VFR Weather (assuming you will be working on your instrument rating), how much fuel do I need in addition to legal reserves to make my plan C or D work, etc etc.   Once you have your PPL and IR it’s not so much about the technical flying as deciding when to fly, more importantly when not to fly, and to develop  strategies for exercising good judgement during flights.  

 

*** Edit 2:  @Hyett6420 is onto something about the fear thing.  Two deadly outcomes   when the shit hits the fan for pilots are  helmet fire and/or resignation.  Never ever stop thinking and never ever stop flying the plane.  One thing that might be helpful is to have some introspection about how you behave and think in high stress environments.  Some of the members here have been there and done that.  Others members have other non-aviation lines of work - such as the military and/or public safety - that are true high stress, high pressure, high stakes environments.  Do you know how you’ll react when placed in a life or death situation?  Personally I know exactly how I think and behave in the setting of fear and stress - so I can be reasonably assured that I will think and behave in a similar manner in an aviation emergency.  This is something that every pilot should have some sense of but my guess is that fewer than 25% of GA pilots have some level of self reflection and introspection about how they behave when stressed and afraid.  

[Shadrach]

On 11/26/2017 at 6:25 PM, jetdriven said:

Its only low time pilots who say "hours don't mean shit".   Think about that.

I agree with you.  However, I will also add that some of the most dogmatic falsehoods that I've ever had the displeasure of hearing have been preceded by "I've got 1X,XXX hrs and"....so it's a double edged sword.   

I am not a high time pilot (somewhere north of 1000hrs), nor do I have my IR...yet (though I passed the written and met all of the instruction requirements years ago). Given my low time, I do my best to have my facts straight so that my statements/arguments are supported by more than my somewhat puny collection of logbooks.  I know a few that feel as though they've spent the last 30 years waking everyday to piss aviation excellence and that alone makes whatever they're saying gospel.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Shadrach

[NJMac]

16 hours ago, Kris_Adams said:

Well let us know when you fly down.  I'm pretty close and always love to meet up with other Mooniacs.

BTW congrats on starting an 8 page (so far) thread.  That's impressive!

Ill definitely hit you and @Tony up (from a pm) when i come down to KCTJ.  Would enjoy making new friends.  

[Shadrach]

On 11/26/2017 at 4:19 PM, NJMac said:

Just like years don't give you wisdom, I don't necessarily buy the statement that hours give you wisdom.

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I have not read every reply here so maybe this is redundant.  It is indeed true that you don't know what you don't know.  Expanding your zone of comfort is not necessarily something you what to do with family on board, but that does not mean you taking unnecessary risks without them is the way to go.  If there were an incident,  dying alone vs your whole family dying are bothy lousy outcomes. 

You and you alone need to make decisions about the safety of flight and what you feel comfortable doing with family.  Find a trusted and experienced mentor to help you make smart decisions and maybe fly with you when taking on new challenges.  Submitting a question of this nature to Mooneyspace has limited utility as you will get all kinds of answers (mostly well intentioned) as it becomes a debate.

How many 300NM or greater trips have you made?  How comfortable are you communicating with ATC in busy controlled airspace?   Beyond your ability to  conduct the flight safely, can you do it like a pro?  We've all made asses of ourselves and it's best to confine those situations to solo or instruction flights.  If your family is to enjoy flying with you, they need to have confidence in their PIC.  It may not be a good idea for them to witness your "learning experiences".

The other thing I would say is that aside from the pros who take mandatory recurrency  training and fly regularly, a lot of pilots were at the top of their ability to handle the aircraft during the days the days leading up to their checkride.   That would be a feather in your currency cap if you were using the plane that you trained in for the trip.  

I am in the camp that feels those suggesting 500hrs and an IR for a 350NM trip are way out of touch.  I think that it's ridiculous to spend 2 to 5 years gaining experience before traveling with family.  During WWII we were turning fighter pilots loose on the enemy with far less.  British Pilots were engaging ME109s over "The Channel" with about the same amount of flight time you have. That doesn't mean I'd let my my wife kids fly with you...I wouldn't, at least not without spending some time verifying your skills (which is precisely how your in-laws feel).  Regardless, I don't think it's beyond reasonable for you to want to use a plane for family travel. That's a decision for you. 

How many hours did you have when you took your check ride?  How many in the aircraft you are using for traveling?

 

[Shadrach]

On 11/26/2017 at 5:58 PM, Hank said:

It pisses me off when people get on their high horses and start preaching that it takes 300-500 hours and an instrument rating to be "safe enough" to take your family on a 200nm VFR trip. Put that in the "You Too Can Be a Pilot" brochures, and there won't be any more student pilots.

We all earned our PPLs so we can fly places, and the traffic pattern and local practice area don't count as going anywhere. Condemn me to 200 hours of that before I can do anything else? And you wonder why aviation is struggling! It's because of attitudes like this!

 

Some of the local flight schools "condemn" their students 20+hrs of dual before solo and nearly 100 before a checkride.   I trained at a small airport in the Midwest.  When I returned to Baltimore I wanted to rent from a local flight school north of the city. I talking to a student while waiting to meet the instructor that would check me out in a C172 for the first time.  The student I was talking to had just soloed at something like 56 hours.    I was a freshly minted Private pilot with 47hrs PIC, but I kept that to myself and wished him well.  

[mike_elliott]

On 11/28/2017 at 8:32 PM, Hank said:

You're a brave man, going to see your MIL alone. Or will you send the wife ahead and have her pick you up? My wife is very against her driving somewhere that I will fly to, except last summer at the beach when she was able to stay longer she didn't complain about the 8-9 hour drive or meeting me at the airport when I arrived several days later at 2130.

Alice is a peach in that she will make the 6+ hour drive to Panama City beach for the Summit while I fly. She brings up the raffle prizes, wine etc that just wont quite all fit in the Bravo! She has never complained at all, although I know she would much rather fly as she loves it. I have a good one !! <3

 

[thinwing]

On 11/28/2017 at 1:06 PM, mike_elliott said:

Chris will get his just due, Erik, Karma is a "bi&ch" and in his case, she will be gravity enhanced...

Remember ,all of Marauders cuties are virgins for a reason!

[Hank]

I'm jealous, Mike!

[mike_elliott]

22 minutes ago, Hank said:

I'm jealous, Mike!

yea, sometimes, I wake up in the middle of the night, look over at her and High five myself....

[NJMac]

...I wouldn't, at least not without spending some time verifying your skills (which is precisely how your in-laws feel).  Regardless, I don't think it's beyond reasonable for you to want to use a plane for family travel. That's a decision for you. 
How many hours did you have when you took your check ride?  How many in the aircraft you are using for traveling?
 

Wow, an exceptional response. I took my check ride at like 64 hours, all of them in the 172 that I started training with. I'm just a little over 80 hours in my log book I believe. All of those in the 172. The most recent 8 hours have been simulated Hood work for instrument lessons. In fact I have not mentioned it yet, my Mooney still isn't flying because of the avionics upgrade. I was actually planning on renting the 172 for this cross country. And you're exactly right, my mother-in-law's coming to our house in January and she does want to fly with me.

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[Shadrach]

12 hours ago, NJMac said:

 

 

Wow, an exceptional response. I took my check ride at like 64 hours, all of them in the 172 that I started training with. I'm just a little over 80 hours in my log book I believe. All of those in the 172. The most recent 8 hours have been simulated Hood work for instrument lessons. In fact I have not mentioned it yet, my Mooney still isn't flying because of the avionics upgrade. I was actually planning on renting the 172 for this cross country. And you're exactly right, my mother-in-law's coming to our house in January and she does want to fly with me.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

 

So you are indeed about as green as a pilot can be my friend. Your in law's concerns are justified if not their method of broaching the subject. Would you let your wife and child fly with someone of your experience level without vetting them first?

You received a license for self study at 64hrs. With just 16 PP hours behind you, almost all of your experience is yet to be gained. I was certainly taking passengers on flights at your experience level, but I'd be deluding myself if I believed they understood the true scope of the risks. I was a decent stick, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is how well you handle a situation that has really gone pear shaped. You can't really know until you've been through it. In twenty years  and more than 1000 hrs, I have yet to find out...but I'm certain that I'm much better now than I was then.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Shadrach

[bradp]

@NJMac  no rush man. Train train train.  Get a mentor / buddy and start working through your cross country time for your Instrument rating - this will be a good start.  Even better is don’t find someone who’s as fresh as you to be your mentor / safety pilot - find someone who’s current, proficient and experienced.  One of the coolest pilot mentoring setups I’ve seen is with southern airways express in the mid Atlantic where most of their captains are 10-20k hr retired US airways pilots who just enjoy flying and their FOs are low time SICs - that’s transfer of experience and that’s exactly what you need  .  Start with smaller  and work your way up *slowly*. Get your feet wet in a supervised fashion.    Think of your goals as an aviator in terms of decades not months.  You might consider one of those cross the US instrument courses for your IR.  My buddy is the star of the pilot workshop videos - so I have a bias but do not own any - but a series like that or Richard Collins “Weather Flying” may be useful to give you a sense of the factors that go into cross country decision making.  

You are about as new as you can be and I’m not sure you realize how much you have to learn based on some of the posts here.  That thing that you hear from your CFI / DPE about this being your license to learn — that’s true.  Now is the time when you start learning.  I can tell you that unless you work for the NWS in your real job, you have no likely idea what aviation Weather is on a regional scale and how much that can get you in trouble.  You learn about 5%-10% of what you need to know about Weather for safe cross country travel by the end of the PPL, probably about 35-40% by then end of the IR. So start studying weather too.  It’s even harder these days with the self briefing tools, lack of quality briefings through L-M (you used to be able to talk to a briefer intelligently and get Weather advice and local knowledge- no more).   Aviation Weather workshops (again I don’t use that product) may be a good starting point. Do a whole bunch of those wings credits now, start going to faast lecture, VMC/IMC club, etc.  license to learn... right. Consider the mooney PPP course and you have an experienced Mooney CFI for transition training with your C lined up, correct?

I’m not trying to be discouraging rather encouraging in what I consider to be the right way to go about this.  You’re at the assimilation phase.