Virginia Accident

[Yetti]

On 10/9/2017 at 1:01 AM, Cooperd0g said:

There are trees not far past the end of the runway. I don't normally climb at Vx, but as I saw the trees I pulled for Vx and made my second mistake. I over-rotated and entered a power on stall. As I was barely over the treetops while I was attempting to correct, but the sight of the trees right beneath me tempered my forward pitch correction and I re-stalled. I lost lift on the left wing, rolling left. I did not have enough control to really pick a spot at that point, but I had enough rudder to keep the nose between the trees. Or I didn't and it was luck. I honestly can't say. It happened pretty fast by that point.

I don't normally comment on crash threads.  One of the things about the Mooney wing is to get it flying. (shown to me by a CMDR USN had a 2000 hour F-18 patch)  There are a couple of seconds after lift off while getting the gear up (Not sure when you did it) that you fly almost level.   This gets speed up and gets the wing flying.  It would be easy with trees coming up to pull up and jam the throttle, just like you would in a jet.  The discipline to hold it down and let the wing fly is not natural when trees are in the windshield.   You did react to the stall by pushing down which is what saved you.    For those wanting to practice departure stalls, I would skip it.    It is teaching the wrong muscle memory.   STall horn blaring and pulling up more.  That is wrong.  It would be better to practice engine outs (up high of course) There is a very short reaction time From climbing out to having to push down once the engine is chopped.  We did these last FR and it was an experience.   We need more training on hear the stall horn and push down.  You know for when you forget to reset the trim on takeoff.   Buy another plane and get back up on that horse and ride it.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

• Your F manual matches my '66E manual for Vx clean.
• The J speed seems to be KIAS. Or perhaps it is with takeoff flaps which would probably be best practice for obstacle clearance. 
• (FWIW, my '66E Vx, with takeoff flaps is 70 kias = 80 mIas; Vx clean is 82 kias = 94 mIas).

 

Interesting, my 67F POH makes no mention of Vx with take off flaps. What is stall speed with take off flaps in your bird?

Another interesting point is that MGW Vx is 14mph higher in your bird when compared to a J that is 165lbs heavier. Seems counterintuitive for same wing and horsepower.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Also a 1966 Super 21 M20E Owners Manual says under TAKE-OFF AND CLIMB

The speed for maximum angle of climb (obstacle clearance) is about 80 mph IAS.  Gives a recommended power setting for climbing of 2500rpm and 25"MP.

 

Maximum Rate: 105IAS (doesn't say MPH or Knots there)

[Hank]

1 hour ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Also a 1966 Super 21 M20E Owners Manual says under TAKE-OFF AND CLIMB

The speed for maximum angle of climb (obstacle clearance) is about 80 mph IAS.  Gives a recommended power setting for climbing of 2500rpm and 25"MP.

 

Maximum Rate: 105IAS (doesn't say MPH or Knots there)

In 1966, everything was in mph, so no need to write it every time. Knots came around i  the late 70s, didn't they?

[MyNameIsNobody]

21 minutes ago, Hank said:

In 1966, everything was in mph, so no need to write it every time. Knots came around i  the late 70s, didn't they?

I'll take your word there. (Timing for MPH to Knots).  This information (Vx) was not in a table, but in a paragraph.  Found the "about" 80 interesting.  Couldn't nail that down I guess

Revisions, such as backing off RPM and Throttle (25 25) have definitely changed over years...

I found it interesting that Beech pilots were stating that leaving gear down in Vx climb was preferred, that there is a negative in Vx climb performance by retracting gear.(?!). That seems really counter-intuitive.  This is NOT a practice I would think of doing in my Mooney on take-off/climb.

The ultimate shame is that lawyers have made the practice of updating Pilot Manuals NOT something that would ever be done with vintage planes.  

Time has shown that some 1960's practices were/are NOT optimal, but for lack of official and updated information practices are followowed, because that is the "official data" so it is "right"...

[Bob_Belville]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Interesting, my 67F POH makes no mention of Vx with take off flaps. What is stall speed with take off flaps in your bird?

Another interesting point is that MGW Vx is 14mph higher in your bird when compared to a J that is 165lbs heavier. Seems counterintuitive for same wing and horsepower.

Stall speeds (2575#: gross)

Vso (33⁰ full flaps) 50 kias = 57 mias;

15⁰ take off flaps  56 kias = 64 mias;

Vs (0 flaps) 59 kias = 68 mias.  

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Stall speeds (2575#: gross)

Vso (33⁰ full flaps) 50 kias = 57 mias;

15⁰ take off flaps  56 kias = 64 mias;

Vs (0 flaps) 59 kias = 68 mias.  

Deja vu, sort of...

I'm 165lbs heavier but apparently that only effects stall speed when the flaps are at 33 degrees. Yup, those "engineers" were really on it.

[Tommy]

11 hours ago, Yetti said:

I don't normally comment on crash threads.  One of the things about the Mooney wing is to get it flying. (shown to me by a CMDR USN had a 2000 hour F-18 patch)  There are a couple of seconds after lift off while getting the gear up (Not sure when you did it) that you fly almost level.   This gets speed up and gets the wing flying.  It would be easy with trees coming up to pull up and jam the throttle, just like you would in a jet.  The discipline to hold it down and let the wing fly is not natural when trees are in the windshield.   You did react to the stall by pushing down which is what saved you.    For those wanting to practice departure stalls, I would skip it.    It is teaching the wrong muscle memory.   STall horn blaring and pulling up more.  That is wrong.  It would be better to practice engine outs (up high of course) There is a very short reaction time From climbing out to having to push down once the engine is chopped.  We did these last FR and it was an experience.   We need more training on hear the stall horn and push down.  You know for when you forget to reset the trim on takeoff.   Buy another plane and get back up on that horse and ride it.

That is a soft field take off technique not a short field / obstacle clearance according to POH. How is that going to achieve better result?

Edited October 16, 2017 by Tommy

[Tommy]

8 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Interesting, my 67F POH makes no mention of Vx with take off flaps. What is stall speed with take off flaps in your bird?

Another interesting point is that MGW Vx is 14mph higher in your bird when compared to a J that is 165lbs heavier. Seems counterintuitive for same wing and horsepower.

So did you mis-read the manual then? Sounds to me the Vx of both model with TAKE OFF flaps aren't too much different. 

[Guitarmaster]

I'll take your word there. (Timing for MPH to Knots).  This information (Vx) was not in a table, but in a paragraph.  Found the "about" 80 interesting.  Couldn't nail that down I guess
Revisions, such as backing off RPM and Throttle (25 25) have definitely changed over years...
I found it interesting that Beech pilots were stating that leaving gear down in Vx climb was preferred, that there is a negative in Vx climb performance by retracting gear.(?!). That seems really counter-intuitive.  This is NOT a practice I would think of doing in my Mooney on take-off/climb.
The ultimate shame is that lawyers have made the practice of updating Pilot Manuals NOT something that would ever be done with vintage planes.  
Time has shown that some 1960's practices were/are NOT optimal, but for lack of official and updated information practices are followowed, because that is the "official data" so it is "right"...

Doesn't the Beech have inner gear doors that open in sequence creating drag?
The 310 has the same thing, leave the gear down for obstacle clearance for this reason.
Our Mooney's don't suffer from this problem.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Hank]

21 minutes ago, daver328 said:

I LOVE that “ignore user” feature ... sorry I cant read what “Tommy” says! (Snicker)

I'll second that, and double down for the two consecutive "missed" posts!  

[gsxrpilot]

5 minutes ago, Guitarmaster said:

Doesn't the Beech have inner gear doors that open in sequence creating drag?
The 310 has the same thing, leave the gear down for obstacle clearance for this reason.
Our Mooney's don't suffer from this problem.

Some Mooney's do actually. My 252 has inner doors that open to allow the gear to retract, then close over the wheels. But it all happens very quickly and I don't expect it adds any drag. I just know my Mooney climbs much quicker when it's built some airspeed. I build airspeed much quicker with the gear tucked up and put away. So my gear is gone as soon as positive rate it achieved. 

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, Guitarmaster said:

Doesn't the Beech have inner gear doors that open in sequence creating drag?
The 310 has the same thing, leave the gear down for obstacle clearance for this reason.
Our Mooney's don't suffer from this problem.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

Paul is right, even the Mooneys with inner gear doors are pretty quick. Bonanza gear with inner doors moves s l o o o w ! !

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

That is a soft field take off technique not a short field / obstacle clearance according to POH. How is that going to achieve better result?

No different.  If you lift off at 70mph and best angle of climb is 94mph and best rate of climb is 113 mph.  You just take a moment to accelerate to those speeds and get the wing flying.  According to the POH.

 

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

No different.  If you lift off at 70mph and best angle of climb is 94mph and best rate of climb is 113 mph.  You just take a moment to accelerate to those speeds and get the wing flying.  According to the POH.

 

So it's a soft as well as a short field take off then? That's a tough gig.

And if there is no difference in terms of obstacle clearance then there is really no reason to rotate early and hover in ground effect if it's a short field? Much safer to accelerate with wheels planting on the ground, right? 

This is confusing but I guess what I am trying to say is that if you don't have the necessary runway length then a soft field take off technique isn't going to save your ass clearing those trees, probably going to inflict greater damage with higher velocity into the trees.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

No different.  If you lift off at 70mph and best angle of climb is 94mph and best rate of climb is 113 mph.  You just take a moment to accelerate to those speeds and get the wing flying.  According to the POH.

 

Not true, there are things your airplane will do in ground effect that it won't do out of ground effect. It will fly below its normal stall speed in ground effect.  This is great for getting up and away from a high drag runway environment (tall grass, soft dirt, mud, snow, etc.) it's not good for accelerating to a target speed as quickly as possible. The point of a soft field procedure is to transfer weight to the wings ASAP. A soft field technique begins with full power and full aft elevator. The nose wheel is lifts off first. Back pressure is maintained as needed to lift off as soon as the plane will fly in ground effect. Back pressure is maintained as needed to hold the aircraft in ground effect until adequate airspeed is attained for climb out.

A short field procedure is not anything like a soft fieId procedure. If one has a paved runway use it until the the plane is ready to fly. The best way to handle a short field in my opinion is to set take off flaps and trim and hold moderate back pressure (5lbs or so) until the plane lifts off on its own, then accelerate in ground effect to Vx and pitch to maintain.

if you don't know the difference, it would be prudent to spend some time with an instructor.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Shadrach

[carusoam]

Looks like you are all in agreement...

Even if you can't see Tommy knodding his head in a positive manner... 

1) Soft field technique intends to get the plane out of the resistance caused by the crummy surface.

2) unfortunately, it puts you into a crummy, high resistance, AOA, for a few more seconds, while accelerating better, while not in contact with the soft surface.

3) All hands are on deck, while accelerating to Vx at one wings length/height above the runway...

4) As Vx is achieved climb attitude is achieved to begin clearing objects... like the 50' tree.

5) You are in 'all hands on deck' mode focussed on airspeed, attitude, and very little altitude above ground.

6) If you have electric gear, hitting a switch wouldn't add much effort.

7) If you have manual gear, a slender build, and are new to the aircraft...waiting to climb 50’ May be the better route for you.

8) stowing the gear early has very little effect at the slow airspeeds of ground effect.

Summary: Put an end to three things that cause resistance to your flight.....

• Get off the mushy ground using soft field technique.
• Get to Vx using proper AOA in ground effect.
• Climb over the tree at 50’ at Vx.
• raise the gear as soon as practical. Depends on DA, ag ear switch, or arm strength, familiarity with the plane, familiarity with the gear system.

9) there isn't a good reason to not put the gear away, accept accidently coming in contact with the runway gear up...

10) Try this with the flight simulator.  Climbing out of ground effect occurs often. Settling back on the runway will happen, but not as frequently.

I can see why the lawyers took command without the Customer providing his own data, as ragedracer seems to have done...

Its a complex multi-step process that has multiple ways of ending up in the tree.

So load up on instrumentation and head out to a long runway and practice collecting data...

I really like my cloudAhoy app and flight recorder... WAAS data at its finest...

PP thoughts with a hint of engineering involved...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, Tommy said:

So did you mis-read the manual then? Sounds to me the Vx of both model with TAKE OFF flaps aren't too much different. 

Tommy,

I didn't mis-read anything. You don't get it from a physics/mathematical standpoint and I'm not sure how to help you. The inconsistencies I've pointed out should be obvious to anyone that understands that all other things being equal, climb is a function of power and weight.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Some things are "worth it".  Some "are not".  Debating with Tommy most certainly is not.  I have gained some insight from reading others comments on this thread.  Thank you.

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Tommy,

I didn't mis-read anything. You don't get it from a physics/mathematical standpoint and I'm not sure how to help you. The inconsistencies I've pointed out should be obvious to anyone that understands that all other things being equal, climb is a function of power and weight.

I agree with you on the issue of soft vs short field take off. 

What I didn't quite get is that you say POH is often wrong - which, you might not realise it, is a pretty bold and dangerous statement to make. You cited the Vy speeds being different between TWO models as a reason not to trust POH but someone else pointed out that your 67 POH Vy is without take off flaps. 

I am merely seeking clarification.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Tommy

[Yetti]

20 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Not true, there are things your airplane will do in ground effect that it won't do out of ground effect. It will fly below its normal stall speed in ground effect.  This is great for getting up and away from a high drag runway environment (tall grass, soft dirt, mud, snow, etc.) it's not good for accelerating to a target speed as quickly as possible. The point of a soft field procedure is to transfer weight to the wings ASAP. A soft field technique begins with full power and full aft elevator. The nose wheel is lifts off first. Back pressure is maintained as needed to lift off as soon as the plane will fly in ground effect. Back pressure is maintained as needed to hold the aircraft in ground effect until adequate airspeed is attained for climb out.

A short field procedure is not anything like a soft fieId procedure. If one has a paved runway use it until the the plane is ready to fly. The best way to handle a short field in my opinion is to set take off flaps and trim and hold moderate back pressure (5lbs or so) until the plane lifts off on its own, then accelerate in ground effect to Vx and pitch to maintain.

if you don't know the difference, it would be prudent to spend some time with an instructor.

I probably should have said wing flying better.  I know the different between soft field and short field and regular take off.  Don't be so dismissive. On a regular take off what angle are you pitching too between 70 mph and 104mph?  Do you pitch to the final angle or do your pause for a second(already out of ground effect) build speed and then pitch to the final vx or vy speed?  I pause for a couple seconds at a slight up angle, let speed build, then pitch to the final angle.   it's what I was taught, works better for me.  YMMV.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Meanwhile a 66 M20E had a nice flight to Northern Wisconsin culminating in a grass strip landing with winds at 9 gusting to 15 right down the runway.  Plane functioned as it always has and delivered its owner and two English Pointers in two hours what would have been 6-6.5 in a car.  Grouse and Woodcock better be looking out 'cause we are coming for ya!!!!!!!!  I love my Mooney and I love GA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[skykrawler]

A late addition to this post.  W75 has made changes to the departure area of the RWY 1.   The tall pine trees have been removed and the two story frame house was moved.  This makes the RWY 1 departure much safer. 

I fly in there for fuel and for the challenge.  You must be on  your game because the margins are smaller.

[ShuRugal]

40 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

A late addition to this post.  W75 has made changes to the departure area of the RWY 1.   The tall pine trees have been removed and the two story frame house was moved.  This makes the RWY 1 departure much safer. 

I fly in there for fuel and for the challenge.  You must be on  your game because the margins are smaller.

That's good news!  That field has eaten a few Mooneys recently (last time I was over there, Rusty had a 201 in the shop someone had overrun the runway in and dug up some dirt with the prop).  Do you know if they have finished the planned paved extension yet?

[skykrawler]

I was there last week and it looked like grass....so I don't know if they plan to pave or not.  It would be nice if the runway was 10ft wider but that's not likely.

I wouldn't take off from there at max GW without a 10kt headwind.  Another thing to bear in mind in these scenarios is the wind goes calm on the ground and 50 ft up you have a 5 kt wind.