Partitioned and Distributed Annual

[HRM]

So, I just got my E back from Annual and, as always, I have three stickers for my logs--airframe, engine and prop. Since I am also readying for 'owner assisted' annuals sometime in the future, I've been studying up on the annual process. It occurred to me that the annual can be partitioned into three parts, as per the stickers. Could you, in theory, have three different IA's sign off on those parts? Like  IA1 comes in and does prop, IA2 does engine and IA3 does airframe. 

[jetdriven]

The IAsigns the airframe log book as completed annual inspection. The prop and engine logs get a similarly worded entry but says completed a 100-hr inspection. But the annual entry for the airframe covers the whole machine. 

[1964-M20E]

I'm not an IA but I think on larger aircraft and some smaller ones they do phased inspections.  However, I'm not sure how that would for a personal aircraft without a full time mechanic / IA.  It might lead to some confusion especially when selling or buying.

[N6758N]

14 minutes ago, HRM said:

So, I just got my E back from Annual and, as always, I have three stickers for my logs--airframe, engine and prop. Since I am also readying for 'owner assisted' annuals sometime in the future, I've been studying up on the annual process. It occurred to me that the annual can be partitioned into three parts, as per the stickers. Could you, in theory, have three different IA's sign off on those parts? Like  IA1 comes in and does prop, IA2 does engine and IA3 does airframe. 

Yes, you could. I'm not sure how others get away with only one annual sticker covering all three items but that's not the way I interpret the regulations. My annuals always get a seperate sticker for each airframe, engine, and propeller. So it is 3 'annual' stickers for a regular Mooney annual. Look at it this way, if you installed an engine on your plane from another airplane, you would need that engine you were installing to have a current annual inspection. All the IAs I know do it this way. 

[jetdriven]

there is no annual inspection of an engine or prop.  hence the 100 hr inspection.

https://www.askbob.aero/content/annual-inspections

[MB65E]

I've worked on several airplanes with a good IA friend of mine. I'd inspect the engine, he'd inspect the airplane. We were pretty efficient. 

I had my Powerplant rating about 2 years longer than my airframe. One can still use Ac41.13 appendix D for the conpleation of the inspections.

I would not see 3 signatures as an issue. Although after reading Byrons article, the three are not required.

Great read Byron!! 

-Matt 

[HRM]

6 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

there is no annual inspection of an engine or prop.  hence the 100 hr inspection.

I took a closer look at the stickers and indeed, the prop and engine ones say 100 hour. The airframe one says annual.

The reality is that the IA just inspects and then signs off on having inspected. An A&P or owner can do all the 'work' under applicable rules, then the IA comes in and inspects then the whole thing gets wrapped up and flown away. Of course, the A&P can also be the IA or even the owner, so things get muddled.

 

[RobertGary1]

21 hours ago, N6758N said:

Yes, you could. I'm not sure how others get away with only one annual sticker covering all three items but that's not the way I interpret the regulations. My annuals always get a seperate sticker for each airframe, engine, and propeller. 

Remembers that 3 logs are for practical purposes there is no faa requirement for different logs. Following that theory an IA can sign "this aircraft" which covers all 3 in one entry  vs "this airframe" which does not include the prop and engine. 

-Robert

[N6758N]

3 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Remembers that 3 logs are for practical purposes there is no faa requirement for different logs. Following that theory an IA can sign "this aircraft" which covers all 3 in one entry  vs "this airframe" which does not include the prop and engine. 

-Robert

Again, what happens when the engine or propeller is removed from the airframe and installed on a different airframe...It happens all the time. While legally it may be permissible to sign 'this aircraft' in the airframe logbook and have it cover all three components, it just doesn't make sense to do it that way. Would you want to install a serviceable propeller on your aircraft without any logbooks? I think not...

[nels]

Thought you were off today so I'm at home.

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, N6758N said:

Again, what happens when the engine or propeller is removed from the airframe and installed on a different airframe...It happens all the time. While legally it may be permissible to sign 'this aircraft' in the airframe logbook and have it cover all three components, it just doesn't make sense to do it that way. Would you want to install a serviceable propeller on your aircraft without any logbooks? I think not...

I wasn't advocating just clarifying the regs. 

-Robert 

[Andy95W]

Well, I'm with all you guys.  I was initially taught per Byron- an aircraft gets an Annual inspection, engines and propellers get 100 hour inspections.  Then I sold my Aztec and the new owner wanted Annual signoffs for the engines and props.

Explained the rationale above.  Deer in the headlights look.  Scratched out "100 hour", wrote in "Annual" 4 times with my initials and he flew away happy.  Whatever.

[jetdriven]

I think you can do the annual then install two serviceable used props and engines the day after and The aircraft still hasa legal annual, correct?

[N6758N]

Just now, jetdriven said:

I think you can do the annual then install two serviceable used props and engines the day after and The aircraft still hasa legal annual, correct?

And there is the issue Byron. Yes, the airframe annual would still be legal, however the person who signed off the airframe annual didn't inspect those engines/props- it would be the responsibility of the installing A&P/IA to determine their condition and make an appropriate logbook entry. But if the props/engines that were installed had their own logbooks with a current 'annual' it would make this process much easier. I think this is the reason each component (airframe, engine, prop) each have their own logbook, and why a lot of IAs end up signing off an annual for each one. 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

I think you can do the annual then install two serviceable used props and engines the day after and The aircraft still hasa legal annual, correct?

Maybe not. There would need to be an inspection in the last 12 months for those props. If they've been sitting in a box then I don't think so. 

-Robert 

[HRM]

2 hours ago, N6758N said:

Yes, the airframe annual would still be legal...

Of course, the time to question these things is at sale, and then one explores the legality of the issue.

For those of us that fly <100 hrs/year, it makes sense to just do it all at once. I frankly think that since the FAA requires inspections on props and engines, they too deserve logbooks that "stand alone" from the airframe, just like the pilot, who, as you all know, also has a logbook.

My original question got answered. The airframe inspection and the aircraft annual is independent of the prop and engine as long as the engine and prop are current in 100 hour inspections. It makes fiscal sense for one IA to do it all. Makes even more sense that the IA is the A&P.

[goterminal120]

Soooo....if the airplane flys 50 hours in a year we dont do anything to the engine for another 50 hours. Or it flys 200 hours in a year we're doing semi anual inspection on engines and props.

[Guest]

I don't charge more to make an entry that says "An Annual and 100 hour inspection was carried out........." and enter it in the airframe, engine and propeller logs, perhaps I should.

Clarence

[Jim F]

I think the original question was answered.

Going off memory you could put your AC on a progressive inspection. This basically takes all the annual steps and breaks them up to do in 50hr increments and all would be completed in 200hrs. The FAA must agree to the progressive inspection plan. If you don't fly 200hr a year it makes no sense. Your IA would also need to make each inspection and entry and that would be expensive.  This would make sense if you had an IA and worked on your own plane. That would meet your yearly IA requierments for inspections. 

[Shiny moose]

Just remember, signing off an annual is stating that up to that date and signature, the aircraft IS in airworthy condition, including all other work and inspections in its past, not future. So hanging another engine or prop after an annual would only require an entry in log not another annual


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RobertGary1]

15 hours ago, goterminal120 said:

Soooo....if the airplane flys 50 hours in a year we dont do anything to the engine for another 50 hours. Or it flys 200 hours in a year we're doing semi anual inspection on engines and props.

No. The engine and prop must be inspected annually. However the question is what inspection is to be done because there is no list of tasks for annual on the engine prop. So annually you say you used the 100 hour inspection checklist to satisfy the annual requirement. 

-Robert

[Bob_Belville]

Are 100 hour inspections (prop, engine) required for planes operating under part 91?

[Andy95W]

16 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Are 100 hour inspections (prop, engine) required for planes operating under part 91?

No, not technically.  But signing off an Annual Inspection for an airframe requires that the engine and prop be airworthy as well.  An FAA inspector would be entirely justified in questioning the method in which the IA ensured they were airworthy, and a 100 hour inspection would cover that.

[N6758N]

16 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Are 100 hour inspections (prop, engine) required for planes operating under part 91?

No they are not. Hence why a lot of IAs sign off annuals for each engine, prop, and airframe seperately for part 91 planes...

 

28 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

No. The engine and prop must be inspected annually. However the question is what inspection is to be done because there is no list of tasks for annual on the engine prop. So annually you say you used the 100 hour inspection checklist to satisfy the annual requirement. 

-Robert

100hr inspections and annuals are identical in scope and detail. The only difference is an IA can sign off both, but an A&P can only sign off a 100hr. Again, this is why a lot of us just sign off annuals for each engine, prop, and airframe...

[goterminal120]

Exactly!!