60 Degree turns in the Mooney

[Yetti]

Who has done them? Who can do them well?   There is no maneuvering speed listed on the placard in the 75 F.

[M20F]

No different then a 45 just more back pressure.  Technically anything over 59 is acrobatics and you need chutes with a passenger.  

[Yetti]

I believe 60 plus is acrobatic

[KLRDMD]

10 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Who has done them? Who can do them well?   There is no maneuvering speed listed on the placard in the 75 F.

I did my single engine commercial training and check ride in my "C" model Mooney so I did all the commercial maneuvers (steep turns are/were 50º, +/- 5º) many times

[kortopates]

No problem for the F or any vintage mooney. Do them regularly with clients; especially those commercially rated. I use a VA/light (i.e. less than max gross Va) of 120 mph for all the vintage Mooney's C/E/F/G's, 

[Marauder]

Who has done them? Who can do them well?   There is no maneuvering speed listed on the placard in the 75 F.

Well Yetti, I've done them in my F. Smooth as silk.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[N201MKTurbo]

I would only do them in preparation for a touch and go after a no flap takeoff while LOP.

[bonal]

have so many times but looking forward to installing an AOA so I can do on base to final

[N201MKTurbo]

11 minutes ago, bonal said:

have so many times but looking forward to installing an AOA so I can do on base to final

[kortopates]

56 minutes ago, bonal said:

have so many times but looking forward to installing an AOA so I can do on base to final

Rumor has it, that using that technique you can turn a 60 degree bank turn into a 1 G or less maneuver ! LOL's

(ok, without the sarcasm, truth be known, every private pilot learned how to do even that without an AOA, although just not to 60 deg.)

[Guest]

1 hour ago, bonal said:

have so many times but looking forward to installing an AOA so I can do on base to final

Along with the AoA you'll need a few pigeons on your shoulders.

Clarence

[Jeff_S]

I do them on every turn at a Sport Air Race. Of course, I'm also planning to lose a little altitude to keep the speed up. It's the closest I'll ever get to being a fighter pilot.

[kpaul]

11 hours ago, Yetti said:

Who has done them? Who can do them well?   There is no maneuvering speed listed on the placard in the 75 F.

I have turned 60 degrees, I have even turned 360 degrees.

Now for a bank angle of 60 degrees, that requires a 2G pull to maintain level flight.

[carusoam]

2g turns were part of primary training in a C152.

60° Banks were the way to do it.

45° banks are considered steep turns, and are a bit easier to hold altitude with.

60° banks are ok in a normal category airplane.

the analog AI is nicely marked at 30°, 45° and 60° angles.

Steep turns burn off a lot of energy. So using them in the traffic pattern may not be a really good idea.

Let me know if I have missed something. This thread makes me feel like something got left out of my initial transition training in my M20C.

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

I'll be looking up the limitations in my POH later... 

Best regards,

-a-

Edited June 28, 2017 by carusoam

[Jerry 5TJ]

Deliberate Thread Creep: 

I used to demo slow flight in my C model to pilots.  I'd show it still had great aileron control at under 40 mph indicated - when pushing over at around 0.5 g.   The demo was useful to dispel the idea that there is a fixed "stalling speed."

I've done push overs, if that is the right aerobatic term, by accelerating to ~ 180 mph in a slight dive, then smoothly pulling back to get the nose about 30 degrees up, then pushing forward as the speed drops to maintain around 0 g.   I could get a few seconds close to zero g before reaching 30 degrees nose down.  

Is that an "aerobatic flight" maneuver?   Per 91.303: "For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight."  And 91.307 (C) says "Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds - (1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or (2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon."  So yes it is aerobatic, and no, no parachute required.

Biggest problem with zero g in the Mooney -- you discover you need to vacuum the carpet a lot more frequently. 

[Yetti]

It was also pointed out that a 60 degree bank angle turn makes a nice turn around a point

[steingar]

Over 60 degrees is indeed aerobatic flight.  Of course, one can fly at 59.5 all day without running afoul of the regs...

[carusoam]

Jerry has indicated that the key word is 'exceeds'...

exceeding 60° of bank is considered too much for normal flight.

it would exceed 2.0 g of force.

The Aircraft builders have put in plenty of safety margin in the designs.  But it has to be a reference that is usable to the pilots, as a starting point.

This way, we are all talking about the same thing.

there is a realistic limitation to all of this. The gs start to increas exponentially the steeper the bank angle gets...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited June 28, 2017 by carusoam

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

Over 60 degrees is indeed aerobatic flight.  Of course, one can fly at 59.5 all day without running afoul of the regs...

Steingar,

It looks like you are now free to use the 60° AI reference.  

Fly around on the 60° reference, level, all day long in smooth air...

You probably won't go very far...

 

Back in the day, there wasn't a way for the FAA to know if you executed a 59° bank or a 61° bank...

with ADSB out and knowledge of the winds aloft, it wouldn't take much to derive your bank angle.

It is very much like your cloud clearance that you maintain.  Was that 500’ or 499'?

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

Back in the day, there wasn't a way for the FAA to know if you executed a 59° bank or a 61° bank...

with ADSB out and knowledge of the winds aloft, it wouldn't take much to derive your bank angle.

It is very much like your cloud clearance that you maintain.  Was that 500’ or 499'?

 

I have no wsy to determine my distance from a cloud, until i put a wingtip into it. Then I know I'm too close, unless on an IFR clearance.

[MooneyMitch]

I especially like doing them on a full moon night, when the sky is beautifully clear.  It's quite a visual and inspirational situation having the moonlight travel around the cockpit during the rotation.  A thrill!!!

Am I good at them he asks..........probably not!  And that in itself can be part of the thrill too!! 

[chrisk]

Level steep turns get progressively harder the steeper the turn.  I trained for my commercial in my Mooney, and I'm pretty sure I went over at least once in training.  The wings are still attached . --In any case, 50 degree turns are not issue.  I'm sure I could do 60 degrees consistently with a bit more practice.

From a practical point, the only time I have found a turn like this useful is for sight seeing.  And one needs to be careful not to make your passenger sick!

[Skates97]

12 minutes ago, chrisk said:

Level steep turns get progressively harder the steeper the turn.  I trained for my commercial in my Mooney, and I'm pretty sure I went over at least once in training.  The wings are still attached . --In any case, 50 degree turns are not issue.  I'm sure I could do 60 degrees consistently with a bit more practice.

From a practical point, the only time I have found a turn like this useful is for sight seeing.  And one needs to be careful not to make your passenger sick!

60° descending turns are great for losing altitude in a hurry.

You must have more adventurous passengers than I do... I'm not sure any of my sightseeing passengers would be comfortable with them. I usually try to stay at 30° or less on those trips.

[chrisk]

Just now, Skates97 said:

60° descending turns are great for losing altitude in a hurry.

You must have more adventurous passengers than I do... I'm not sure any of my sightseeing passengers would be comfortable with them. I usually try to stay at 30° or less on those trips.

It's really funny.  My wife can deal with 3 or 4 good steep constant altitude turns (50 degrees or so) if she is interested in something on the ground.   If she isn't interested or I mess up and she feels herself getting heavier, then she is done with one turn or less.

[pinerunner]

I did a few a couple months ago. Specifically 60 degrees since that was required for my commercial back in the 70's. I think I used 120-140 mph. Know I made sure not to be slowed down after reading the stall speeds for my old E model without flaps. Needless to say I was pretty sloppy. A couple were OK and a couple I lost altitude and rolled out. 2G's feels like more than it used to and I didn't want to try even more.