Mooney IFR Students' Thread

[flight2000]

Quote: 74657

...but I assume that if you have a vacuum failure ATC would not throw you in a hold...

[flyboy0681]

Quote: flight2000

[leesh]

Quote: flyboy0681

Interesting feedback from everyone. They all have a common thread, how "unreal" the actual feel of the simulator is yet it's good for instrument basics.

Does anybody have experience in a Redbird sim?

[MooneyMitch]

A and B pattern's for us over the weekend, night IFR, holding, VOR/DME approches at RAL, FUL and AJQ.  Practice ILS approach at the home airport.  A long way to go with this but it is really good for the brain cells that's for sure.

 

[flight2000]

Quote: flyboy0681

[Hank]

Quote: flight2000

Speaking of holds, in the 15 years I've been flying IFR, I've never experienced a hold outside of training.  Done plenty of missed approaches for various reasons, but never made it to the published hold before being rerouted back to the IAF or on to the alternate.  Guess I've been lucky or just odd...

Brian

[MooneyMitch]

 "and there was the runway, right where it was supposed to be. It doesn't get any better than that!"

For me, the reason for pursuing the rating..............Awesome!

[eaglebkh]

The only Mooney-specific challenge I faced while training for IFR was missed approaches.  In a manual gear Mooney, it gets quite busy - prop, throttle, manual gear, flaps, cowl flaps, GPS, communicate.

But IFR is one of the most rewarding experiences, despite the initial level of stress.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: HopePilot

I really believe the important thing is that we all keep training; forever. 

[FlyFstr]

Re: "But what's the reality? How much of the training is never actually utilized in real flying?"

Well…here's my story:

I had several instructors tell me that in the “real IFR world” I'd never get the full published approach with a procedure turn and I’d probably never get a hold. In fact, I was told computers helped make them a thing of the past.

Having a brand new rating was nice, but I was a little concerned about flying an IFR flight all by myself. I needed some courage. So, I called my buddy that’s a professional pilot for some “real world” advice.

He suggested that I file a short IFR trip on a good weather day to an airport I knew.  Good weather (to me) was no ceiling whatsoever at either my home/destination airport, along with good visibility and no bumps or convective weather.  

His advice was appreciated and feeling like the lion in the Wizard of Oz, I now had  courage.

However, the day I filed the weather really didn’t fit my description of “good”. But after finally building up courage and I wasn’t going to chicken out.

The weather that day was pretty much the same at both my home airport and destination. I recall something like 1100 ft overcast with good visibility.

But even better, the TAF and briefer both said it would be scatted by the time I got to my destination.  Cool. This was just what the lion needed to hear.

Although I wasn’t real happy about launching into the overcast, I did think that it would be cool to penetrate into the soft clouds right after take off. And with the scattered clouds forecast at my destination it should be a non brainer approach. Or so I thought.

Before launching, I was expecting a visual approach. After all, that is was the TAF and briefer said. Knowing the winds at my destination I thought that I would be “extra safe” and studied the GPS 29L approach.  

I launched pretty much on time and broke out on top at 4000 ft to a beautiful blue sky with soft smooth white clouds below. This was cool. I wasn't even nervous.

About 15 minutes later ATC contacts me and I get new instructions to hold on over the VOR and I recall a little while later (I think while in the hold) I was told to expect the full VOR 29L approach.

I responded by asking for the GPS 29L approach instead (and already had it loaded in my GPS) but got "not approved - only the full VOR 29L with the procedure turn".   

I thought to myself, holy crap! I didn't even study that approach!  And another thing…it was supposed by be scattered clouds by now! Still in the clear, looking all around below me the clouds were not even broken, not one bit. It was still solid overcast everywhere.

I thanked god for the autopilot and whipped out the VOR 29L approach plate and studied it while I was in the hold (with clear blue skies).

ATC kept lowering me until I was in the goo and cleared for the full approach. I flew it without a burp. I broke out at 900 instead of 1100 and the airport was way over to my left because of the crosswind. All that training paid off.

I later found out the radar went down which I why the change of plans.

[flyboy0681]

Just wondering if it's a good idea or even commonplace for newly minted IR pilots to inform ATC that this is their first solo IFR outing.

[carusoam]

"Just wondering if it's a good idea or even commonplace for newly minted IR pilots to inform ATC that this is their first solo IFR outing."  - flyboy0681

I thought about this.  I learned the trade in the NYC area last year.  This statement tells ATC that you don't feel ready....

In real life, I found you will figure out that the controller you are working with is a student before he figures out you are a student.  No need to tell each other...Strive for excellence.

On the other hand, when you are a little slow to change waypoints (obscure ones, that are not in your clearance) in the rapid fire environment,  they again will let you know your shortcomings.  No need to tell them...Strive for excellence.

Thoughts on proper equipment for IFR flight:  I did find that it is possible to fly IFR with a single VOR head.  But you would not be able to keep up in tough environments.  ATC gives headings, VOR and intersection names and expects you to begin your new direction as soon as practical.

Most important thing I learned after getting the rating.  To improve your mobility into the enroute environment....

Make a list of all VORs in your state, frequencies (and morse code of course) if you are using Nav radios, three letter identifiers if you are using GPS.

GPS is about the only way to go.  Punch in the name (verify proper data) get heading.  My KLN90B takes alot of knob twisting and button pushing before it chokes out direction and distance.

Notes on simulators:  The biggest difference between simulator and actual airplane.  All the knobs and radios are different.  When told to go direct to "X-VOR" be ready on how to do that in the real plane.

Good skill to develop:  small neat writing in a chart format.  ATC name, center or approach, frequency, altimeter setting, altitude and heading.  Each contact with a controller will probably lead to filling in a line in the chart.  Have your chart prepared prior to flight.  When you fly the return, most of the ATC contact will be with the same controllers on the same frequencies - magic.

Best regards,

-a-

[mooneygirl]

As Mitch indicated, we each had approx two hours in my E model over the weekend.  It was intense.  You think you know something from the book learning, then you have to do it in the airplane. I give myself a B-

I did somethings better, like not overcorrecting so much in pitch.  But some things were worse... the dreaded "where are you?" question and  I set up the VOR in the "to" mode versus from to find the radial I was on. 

Can I blame it all on the cone of stupidity?  Plus was using our CFII's foggles instead of the hood we have, which I really love.

More practice soon.

[Bob]

Well, I did my first sim time today.  Yes, the Simulator is much harder.  Also it is like learning a new plane.  The fumbling around to find everything is a little tough.  I think all went well.  The instuctor started me takeing off with 200ft ceilings.  When I was done, he said god you did 2 hrs, not bad for the first time.  I was thinking, why do we have to stop for lunch?  I guess I will have to show him 3 in the tomorrow.

[RobertoTohme]

To all of you working on your IR:

Keep up the good work and don't despair...  there'll be times where you'll be wondering if you would be capable of pulling the trick, but I can tell you that the rewards after earning it will be worth all your sweat and efforts.  My Eagle carried me through all my ratings, and I'm grateful that I did them on such a stable and precise platform that turned me into a better pilot.  Looking back 6 years ago when I started flying, I never pictured me flying as much as I do now and mingling with the pro's in the high flight levels, flying turbines solo...  It's a feeling that can't be described!  Now, I'm getting ready for the last frontier: ATP.

Best wishes for everyone of you on your quest for the most important of all the ratings; the IR!

[FlyingAggie]

No problem Bob, "PZ" survived the high winds over the weekednd and should be waiting for you to bring her home.

While Bob was in Denver, we flew a safety pilots for a Bravo owner, who is a seasoned IFR pilot.  I think we both learned several things about the difference of a practicing IFR pilot vs a training IFR student.  The next day, I invited Bob to ride along in the backseat during my lesson.  Bob commented he learned so much just by watching me. (Learning from all my mistakes no doubt! )  It was good to have someone to debrief about both flights over a cold one at the end of the day and getting their "take" on the lesson.  What went right and what I could do better next time.

Mitch and Jolie are lucky by being training partners for the IR's.  You can learn a lot by not being "in the fire", but being "next to the stove."  I bet they are on a expedious route to their IR's.

Quote: Bob

Well guys, you are all advancing at a fantastic pace with your instrument training.  Keep up the good work!

I was working in Phoenix for a few months and managed to get in only about 10 hrs of hood time in.  On the way home, to Chicago, I was stopped due to a thin wall of IMC.  I was forced to leave the Mooney in Denver and fly commercial home.  No I did not enjoy my first full body scan!  Well my return flight to get the plane is still a week away.  So I decided to do some sim time this week.  I am scheduled for a couple hours three days this week.  Then I go get Papa Zulu and hope to have a great basis to really fine tune everything in the plane and get my IFR training done.

Alan, thanks for keeping an eye on Papa Zulu!

 

[FlyingAggie]

Roberto,

[FlyingAggie]

This is one of the non-precision approaches, I flew yesterday. 

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KLMO/IAP/VOR_DME-A

It was the first thing we did after taking off from KBJC.  We intercepted the approach at 7300' at the FAF and I had trouble getting down in time.  I can't imagine doing it starting at 9200' over the BJC VOR.  It is a good illustration of why you need to be able sustain a 800 to 1000 FPM descent  and control your airspeed for non precision approaches and off course not over cool my turbo'd engine.

Talk about "chop" and "droooooooooop"!!!

Edit--insert link

 

[carusoam]

As an added learning tool....

Keep in mind, when you are in the system you can revisit your flights on flightaware.com.  If you really want to see how well you did in the hold....(everyone in the flight school will be following you online)

Flying Aggie,  I agree with your challenging situation.  It takes a high level of confidence that you are on course prior to descending on a non-precision approach using a VOR.   Making sure you are on course, after the cone of confusion, takes precious time away from your descent.

Try and be slow (hard to do in a Mooney) at the FAF to give you more time to descend.  It took me a while to get this.  conservatively arriving over the airport 2000' agl is pretty dissapointing......safe, but nowhere near MDA...

Major advantage of the approach rated GPS:  no cone of confusion.  Stay on course and descend.  It is still a quick descent, but no loss of time proving to yourself that you are still on course.

Best regards,

-a-

[mooneygirl]

While flying the non-precision approach to Fullerton on Sunday, when I reached the missed approach point and pulled off the hood, to me  I seemed really high Mooney-wise. I mean, when I flew a Cessna you could put in all those flaps and cut the throttle and drop.  At first when I saw white over white on the VASI I didn't think I could land it, but then the CFII said "give it a try", and I did fine. I had to chop the power, trim for 80 mph and put in all the flaps.  The Mooney is so slippery that if I were to just point her nose down to lose the altitude, she would speed up so much I would end up floating down the runway.  Has anyone else had this situation, where you are a decision height, but it still seems high? Maybe it is just me being a newbie.

[mooniac58]

Quote: mooneygirl

While flying the non-precision approach to Fullerton on Sunday, when I reached the missed approach point and pulled off the hood, to me  I seemed really high Mooney-wise. I mean, when I flew a Cessna you could put in all those flaps and cut the throttle and drop.  At first when I saw white over white on the VASI I didn't think I could land it, but then the CFII said "give it a try", and I did fine. I had to chop the power, trim for 80 mph and put in all the flaps.  The Mooney is so slippery that if I were to just point her nose down to lose the altitude, she would speed up so much I would end up floating down the runway.  Has anyone else had this situation, where you are a decision height, but it still seems high? Maybe it is just me being a newbie.

 Yeah, by nature non-precision approaches get you someplace in the front 30 degree fan out of the approach end of the runway, but usually you are not in a great glideslope position at the MAP.  Plus, because you generally keep your speed up a little in case of a missed approach (I like to stay 80KT+ until I have the airport enviornment in sight), you have this against you as well.  Luckily most runways are way longer than you need to get your Mooney down.  In the real world while you are a new IFR pilot you will very likely (read: you really should) have personal IFR minimums that are far above the published ones (mine are damn near VFR minimums! LOL) - from these higher minimums you will have lots of time to get in check for landing.

All this IFR talk makes me miss my Mooney something severe.  Just a few more weeks to go...

[231Pilot]

Quote: FlyingAggie

 

[FlyDave]

Quote: mooneygirl

While flying the non-precision approach to Fullerton on Sunday, when I reached the missed approach point and pulled off the hood, to me  I seemed really high Mooney-wise. I mean, when I flew a Cessna you could put in all those flaps and cut the throttle and drop.  At first when I saw white over white on the VASI I didn't think I could land it, but then the CFII said "give it a try", and I did fine. I had to chop the power, trim for 80 mph and put in all the flaps.  The Mooney is so slippery that if I were to just point her nose down to lose the altitude, she would speed up so much I would end up floating down the runway.  Has anyone else had this situation, where you are a decision height, but it still seems high? Maybe it is just me being a newbie.

[carusoam]

Jolie,

Are you comfortable with slipping the E?  (in VMC...not while still in the soup)

I could get my C to slow down, Throttle back, full flaps, slip (keeping nose down at all times).

I am still learning the ways with the R.  Speed brakes are nice, but not as effective as turning the airplane sideways.  I am using Craig's style of personal minimums,  currently 800 ft above the deck on the east coast.  This is also typical of MDA for the VOR and GPS approach to the home drome. 

-a-

[John Pleisse]

While some do it, slipping any Mooney is ill-advised. I used to do it all the time until I read up on it and looked at the data. There have been numerous articles in MAPA and elsewhere on this subject. Tails stalls can be sharp. With full flaps, gear down, throttle choked, decent rates close to 2000fpm are attainable, negating the needless risk of slipping.

I'd drop the gear or go missed. One thing about a non precision approach......it'll sharpen your judgement. I have excluded non preceision approaches at night and all circle to land approaches from my personal mins. I fugure I have negated half the statistical risk with this strategy.