Mooney purchase question

[Roger O]

Hi Everyone.  I am once again in the market for a Mooney.  My wife and I are alone, and our primary mission is flying is for local trips and to visit our son in VA.  There would be an occasional trip to Florida for vacation. 

As most of the folks here, our funds are limited, and we need to watch our spending a bit.  I am 65 years young, and would like to fly for at least 10 years more, and here comes the question.  Do we buy a 50+ year old C or E which we can pay cash for. but may not be worth much in 10 years, or take a lone for a newer 201 and get proportionally more when we sell?

Thanks to all for your opinions and help!

[xcrmckenna]

I don't think you would lose on your initial investment on a good C or an E model. They have pretty much depreciated as far as they can. I would recommend getting the cleanest plane you can get and plan on selling it for that much in ten years or even longer. I wouldn't expect to get the money you put in for maintenance cost and probably get half of what you put in on new avionics. Probably the best money you could put in it is an adsb compliant set up. I would think you could recoup all or most of that investment. Unless something crazy happens. When the ink dries on Monday I will have a new to me 201. I don't expect to get what I paid for it in ten years.


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[BKlott]

My opinion...and many will disagree...is that if you cannot afford to pay cash for the airplane, you probably cannot afford the airplane in the first place. If you need a loan to acquire the airplane due to a lack of funds, what will you do when you get the first big, unexpected bill? How will you handle the surprise engine job, the leaky tanks, the landing gear that needs to be rebushed, the prop that needs an overhaul or replacement, the avionics repairs or upgrades, etc. I've seen guys that took loans to buy airplanes they really couldn't afford and get caught with these types of bills. The airplane gets parked while they make loan payments, pay hangar rent and insurance while they try desperately to raise the funds for repairs. Not a happy situation.

Besides a good C or E is a GREAT airplane. My Dad owned a 1964 C model and it was special!

[rbridges]

a C, E or J would be awesome.  I would just look at what's on the market and go with the nicest one that you can afford.  I personally don't have a problem with financing a plane, but everyone has their own way of handling money.

 

[Yetti]

I still don't understand the jump in price from an F to a J....  you probably will never miss the couple extra knots from a J.

[XXX]

I'm going to go against the grain here. Money is cheap right now and you can extend your term to 25 years with 20% down. This makes for a really low payment. Take your cash and buy a rental property and let your tenant make your plane payments. Sell the plane in 10 years  and you still have an income property to help in your retirement.

 

[Piloto]

If your wife is like mine that carry a lot of stuff get the M20J model. It is worth the difference in price and it is more appealing for resale.

José

[75_M20F]

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/278/new-plane-details.asp

75 F for $35,000

History Shows a deadstick landing in a field in 1990, but the price is right.

 

Here is another F

https://www.eastcoastaerogroup.com/1976-mooney-m20f

Edited March 11, 2017 by Mooney_Mike

[carusoam]

10 years isn't much time... ( wait? I completely used up my M20C in 10years, then sold it... ) 

Can we stretch it out to 20?

Or do you see something that is Invisible to the rest of us...?

.....................................

If saving capital is important, the M20C is your best friend.

If having a great retirement plane is the plan, the M20E is the preferred ride for two.

If having it all while almost staying on a budget, the M20F has room for four.

MS's favorite flying octogenarian is cruising around in a beautifully updated M20J.

There are Cs, Es, Fs and Js that are equally appreciated across the board.  Some people start with an affordable C, and update with new stuff every year.

 

Will you be flying IFR?

See the Swiss C (Aspen Panel)

See Bob's E (Nice GTN and JPI)

See Marauder's F (Aspen, GTN and JPI)  owning for 20+ years allows for a lot of flexibility for adding updates.

 

I didn't know how well flying was going to fit my lifestyle.  So I bought the C...  it worked well for a decade.  I took the original experience and built on it.  Purchased the bigger brother of the C...

I bet retirement financial planning is different for everybody. I hope there is room for keeping my Mooney... I expect downsizing to an E is a good possibility.  One step at a time... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited March 11, 2017 by carusoam

[Roger O]

Thanks everyone for the great answers.  My main concern is that the change in the price and desire for an older plane will be significantly greater than for a newer one, so that when I decide to sell, I will lose more on the C and E then on a later model J.  Do you agree or disagree, and am I getting too myopic in trying to decode the numbers?  I am a dentist, not an accountant!

Thanks again!

 

[gsxrpilot]

9 minutes ago, Sherman18 said:

Thanks everyone for the great answers.  My main concern is that the change in the price and desire for an older plane will be significantly greater than for a newer one, so that when I decide to sell, I will lose more on the C and E then on a later model J.  Do you agree or disagree, and am I getting too myopic in trying to decode the numbers?  I am a dentist, not an accountant!

Thanks again!

 

I'll disagree.  As was mentioned before, C's and E's have depreciated as far as they're gonna go. If the plane is maintained in good condition, regularly flown, and avionics are somewhat "maintained" (upgrade one or two items every few years), you could probably turn around and sell the C or E for exactly what you paid for it. Even assuming hours put on the engine. I had a C for three years and put 400 hours on it. I maintained it well, and upgraded a couple of inexpensive items in the panel. I sold it for $2K more than I paid for it even with 400 more hours off the engine.

If there is a penalty for a run-out engine, it will be the same on a J as on a C. Actually maybe more so on the J as it's a more expensive engine.

[Roger O]

Thank you gsxrpilot, that's kind of what I had thought, but was not sure.  I realize that you are not able to see into the future (at least I don't think so!), but do you think that in 10 years or so there will be a market for aircraft that are 60+ years old?  That is IMHO really pushing the envelope...

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, Sherman18 said:

Thank you gsxrpilot, that's kind of what I had thought, but was not sure.  I realize that you are not able to see into the future (at least I don't think so!), but do you think that in 10 years or so there will be a market for aircraft that are 60+ years old?  That is IMHO really pushing the envelope...

I wish I could see into the future, I'd have made enough off of the stock market to fly a new Acclaim by now :-)

I think there will be. The reason is, no one is making anything like the M20C or M20E today. And those are truly special airplanes. They sit right in the perfect intersection of speed, range, and efficiency. The entry cost is reasonable and they have four seats. There isn't anything else that matches that. I've gotta think another 10 years won't make a difference.

[Roger O]

Once again, thanks for your insight.  I really want do this "right" - I know, there is no right or wrong - and like some of you, have to deal with a reluctant spouse, who'd rather be on the ground or let Jet Blue fly!  She never understand the allure of flying, and why I'm so addicted to it...  So, I'm trying to play out all the scenarios, and make the best decision I can for our situation.  All of you are helping me a great deal, and I truly appreciate it!

[gsxrpilot]

12 minutes ago, Sherman18 said:

Once again, thanks for your insight.  I really want do this "right" - I know, there is no right or wrong - and like some of you, have to deal with a reluctant spouse, who'd rather be on the ground or let Jet Blue fly!  She never understand the allure of flying, and why I'm so addicted to it...  So, I'm trying to play out all the scenarios, and make the best decision I can for our situation.  All of you are helping me a great deal, and I truly appreciate it!

The thing that won my wife over, was the ability to take our dog with us when we travel. The one in your avatar might do the trick. Unless it is small enough and travels with you on JetBlue anyway.

[Hank]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

The thing that won my wife over, was the ability to take our dog with us when we travel. The one in your avatar might do the trick. Unless it is small enough and travels with you on JetBlue anyway.

What won my wife over is the time saving compared to driving, plus the fact that we rarely travel on the airlines. She thought 2:20 in the Mooney beats the hell out of 9-10 hours in the Honda to see her parents. And it was about the same to the beach, except the drive was longer. We are both children of professional military officers, and grew up making long, long drives home so these were not exceptional. They are so much nicer by Mooney!

[Roger O]

Good point Hank.  Before I go on, I do understand that this is not a marital advice forum!  I guess one of my issues is that when I bring up getting a Mooney, I get the "do what you want, but don't expect me to get involved" argument.  I guess I could just go and buy one, but I really wanted it to be a shared purchase.  Any advice from the more experienced in the group?

[carusoam]

I'm  not a pro finance guy and can't see the future....

But, when facing the future and unknown conditions you can always plan a worst case for the airplane finances...

I did this at age 30 and it works equally well at the other end of the work cycle...

1) Plan for a total loss of value. Bad economic times, engine OH, and paint falling off, a giant AD, and a serious need to sell... take a look at what the bottom of the range sells for.

2) Short term... buy it today (something comes up) and you need to sell it tomorrow...  would a 20% hit get it done...?

3) long term... buy it today and use it for 20 years, the annual expenses will far exceed the cost of the plane...?  When your estate sells it will they follow your instructions?

Without having a lot of airplane ownership experience, spending a ton of dough on a plane comes with a significant amount of risk.

Doing it when you are young, you have the rest of your life to make up for it...  doing it at the other end is more of a question of how well you can handle a total loss.

Knowing the plane you are buying, knowing the owner you are buying it from Can greatly minimize the risk being assumed.

If at the end of ones career, you have a couple of $MM stored away. You have more flexibility to buy the right plane for you.

If you will be flying on a shoe string budget, it may make more sense to use less capital intense plane.

A high quality C is a lot less capital intense than a high quality J.  A Lower quality of Cs and Js can both break their value bank very quickly.

partnerships and flying clubs may be a valid solution to compare with...

PP thoughts only, not a finance guy at all...

Do retired guys use pro finance guys to help with these types of personal finance / risk analysis decisions?  Seth?

Best regards, 

-a-

 

[Oldguy]

I guess I am one of the more fortunate ones. My wife suggested we upgrade to a Mooney from the C172 we had so we could expand our range. We are now able to go to the beach for breakfast in 1:30, over to the in-laws in Greenville, SC in about the same time or over to my family in the Houston area in about 4:00.

In 2015, we were able to have Thanksgiving in Greenville with all of her family for the first time in 30 years even though we have geriatric horses with specific feeding requirements both morning and evening. Our "time machine" gives us the flexibility to do things we want without taking hours/days to travel just to get somewhere. For my mother's 90 birthday last year, we flew into the little airport in her home town rather than the large commercial one several hours away. I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

I have not seen where you will be based, but it sounds somewhat eastern US. If time were not an issue, what would your wife like to do for a day or an overnight trip? Golfing in Hilton Head, fishing out of Pensacola, concerts in Branson or Nashville. All of that is possible with your private airliner. Sometimes it is just spending time together after so many years of everyone working all of the time. You want to fly. What does she want to do that you can fly her to do?

[KLRDMD]

12 hours ago, Sherman18 said:

. . . do you think that in 10 years or so there will be a market for aircraft that are 60+ years old?

60 year old Bonanzas are selling just fine today. I don't understand why anyone would want to burn more fuel to go slower, but that's what the Bonanza guys do 

[Yetti]

Mrs. Yetti would much much do the Mooney over Jet Blue who we currently have a travel ban imposed on.  We live in a big state and she is not that excited about car time so we pop here and there in the mooney.  The 172 made her stomach turn.

[Roger O]

I have shown my wife the posts to this thread, and she is actually positively impressed with the answers.  Perhaps there is hope yet!  I think the greatest impetus is a 2 hr easy flight as opposed to having to travel 5 hrs on I-95 with no traffic to visit our son.

[cnoe]

I have shown my wife the posts to this thread, and she is actually positively impressed with the answers.  Perhaps there is hope yet!  I think the greatest impetus is a 2 hr easy flight as opposed to having to travel 5 hrs on I-95 with no traffic to visit our son.

As stated before I think many Mooney owners refer to our planes as "time machines".

My wife and I used to see the family (~450 nm away) once a year. Since joining the Mooney Club 3 1/2 years ago we've visited them 19 times (and we don't even really like them that much). Niece is turning 40; let's go throw her a party! The little ones are hosting a Halloween party; let's go help with decorations! Great-grandma's turning 95; we'll be there! This month it's a March Madness basketball-watching party!

Add in the long weekend trips to Santa Fe, Florida's Emerald Coast, Durango, Washington DC, Austin, etc. and life becomes an adventure again!

As an added benefit our son Eli has enjoyed so many new experiences!



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[carusoam]

I-95 must be the reason for many Mooney purchases...

keeping the family together is a great reason to have a Mooney.

Grandparents get to know their grandchildren.

200nm equates to only visiting on major holidays.

Having an M20C, we could drop off things in preparation for a holiday, and then go back for the holiday...

You will know things are working as planned when you go there for lunch and come back the same day.

Coming from the son who moved 200nm away...

Best regards,

-a-

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, Sherman18 said:

I have shown my wife the posts to this thread, and she is actually positively impressed with the answers.  Perhaps there is hope yet!  I think the greatest impetus is a 2 hr easy flight as opposed to having to travel 5 hrs on I-95 with no traffic to visit our son.

My daughter goes to school I. Atlanta and traffic can be awful. She lives 2 miles from an airport so I can fly any time of day to visit and not have to worry about traffic. Even being diverted around the bravo, it's a 55 min flight. Easy peasy.