New owner of M20M N763RC

[N6758N]

12 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Now I know where I saw that N number before. We saw it at 47N back in December 2015.


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Yep, I saw it back at Central Jersey with @Alan Fox probably two years ago before the repairs, it was one nasty looking wing, I am surprised they decided to fix it and not throw a new wing on it. I would be skeptical of the repairs even if the best sheemetal guy fixed it. It looked like 75% of the 'right' wing would need to be replaced. IIRC a new Mooney wing from Kerville for a long body is only 90k per Dave at Airmods, seems cheap in comparison to the amount of work that Aileron needed...

[orionflt]

I saw pics from during the repair, the replaced the outer 2/3rd's of the wing and opened up the whole wing to the inboard panel. defiantly looks like a lot of time and work went into it.

Brian

[orionflt]

here are some of the pics that I was sent.

[pcheli]

Buyer beware of Mr. James Carter.
He completely misrepresented this aircraft to me.
I had won the airplane on EBay for a little under 103,000.
PM me for details...


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[Marcopolo]

pcheli,

 

  You've already outed your demon, please fill us in on the details here.

 

R

[Trex20105]

And it is still currently posted for sale on EBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-MOONEY-TLS-BRAVO-1700-TT-CHEAP-DEAL-OF-THE-CENTURY-/122537932027?hash=item1c87d474fb:g:j~QAAOSwt5hYf~Q0&vxp=mtr

 

[Godfather]

I'd also like to know why this bravo was not worth 100k...pm sent. 

[carusoam]

Some people are big fans of NDH airplanes. N763RC seems to have some history shown in this thread. 

Rebuilding the value of the plane is going to take some explanation of how the plane got put back together.  Who did it, what parts, and what shop is the usual method...

Without the DH, the value of the engine with Turbo system needs to be known. Same issues, who and what shop did the work always helps...

The Bravo is a great airplane.  Knowing its actual condition would help the next person to be a buyer... without knowing the condition, the gambling begins... gamble on a PPI? Gamble 100AMU on buying the plane?

What condition is it in?

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by carusoam

[orionflt]

if you look at the pics I posted it looks like they used a donor wing and attached it to the forward and aft spars about 2/3rd s of the way out on the wing. from the pictures the workmanship looks good, my concern is the structural stability of the repair. this is the type of thing that a structural engineer needs to evaluate and the return to service should be thru a DAR instead of an IA

Brian 

[Bravoman]

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

Some people are big fans of NDH airplanes. N763RC seems to have some history shown in this thread. 

Rebuilding the value of the plane is going to take some explanation of how the plane got put back together.  Who did it, what parts, and what shop is the usual method...

Without the DH, the value of the engine with Turbo system needs to be known. Same issues, who and what shop did the work always helps...

The Bravo is a great airplane.  Knowing its actual condition would help the next person to be a buyer... without knowing the condition, the gambling begins... gamble on a PPI? Gamble 100AMU on buying the plane?

What condition is it in?

Best regards,

-a-

 

You had mentioned elsewhere that some people are willing to pay extra for NDH. I think of it as how much less do you pay for DH. A party responsible for damaging your property or an insurer is always responsible for paying for diminished value in addition to repairs in the case of the property being repairable (i.e. not a total loss). From a logic perspective does it make sense for some subsequent buyer to ante up the same money that a NDH example commands in the market? Only in the world of aviation have I seen people delude themselves in this manner. As I have always said a DH will always diminish value as compared to a non damaged example.  There will always be both in the market place. Keep in mind I'm not saying that the DH  will necessarily make  a functional difference with the item; I'm strictly talking economics. I am sure the owner who tore the wing off this Bravo recovered for the diminished value, and it wouldn't blow me away if some insurance carrier paid him for the total loss, although that doesn't appear to be reflected in the title history.

[gsxrpilot]

I would largely agree but would think the age of the DH or more specifically the hours flown since the DH makes a difference.
For example, a C with DH 30 years old and 3000 flight hours ago, would not seem to have quite the economic penalty compared to a NDH C. Whereas the DH of this Bravo would be a significant penalty.

[Bravoman]

I agree that the passage of time thereby giving credence that a plane was repaired correctly will soften the blow, but it should never negate it. If it is not factored into the purchase price it is a function of lack of due diligence and/or negotiating skill on the buyer's part IMO.

[gsxrpilot]

I bought and sold a C right at $50K. It had been through three gear ups in it's 50 some years of life. I don't think any C is worth more than $50K so I'd say it was no factor.

In fact, anyone selling a C with NDH, I'd be very suspect of. We've seen vintage Mooneys come up for sale here claiming NDH only to find it's been damaged under a previous N number. I think it's very unlikely that there are many if any C's out there with NDH. Therefore it's not a factor in the value.  With J's, K's, Bravo's, and newer, the pool of available NDH planes gets larger and therefore the more of a hit on the value a damaged plane takes.

[Preptechmilitia]

HI, I'm about to put a deposit down on this aircraft and wanted to know what you guys think I should do? 

 

Im a new pilot and this is a large investment for me. After reading this I'm kinda nervous. Please advise. 

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, Preptechmilitia said:

HI, I'm about to put a deposit down on this aircraft and wanted to know what you guys think I should do? 

 

Im a new pilot and this is a large investment for me. After reading this I'm kinda nervous. Please advise. 

The only way I would even consider buying it is if Don Maxwell did a thorough pre-buy. If it was me I'd want Don to go pick it up and fly it to his shop so he could find the things you only find when flying the airplane.

No question, an M20M with TKS should go for more than that, but my guess is that there is a reason that no one has bought it yet, including pilots and brokers with decades of experience. If it was such a  great deal, by now it would have been snatched up. A hard question to ask yourself sometimes is what makes me any smarter than all of them put together? Is it really a good deal, since someday you will sell it and all of the history will be available to the next buyer? 

Be careful that this doesn't happen: "When a man with some money meets a man with some experience, the two shall exchange. The man with the money will end up with the experience. The man with the experience will end up with the money."

All that being said, if Don Maxwell gives it a clean bill of health, go for it.

[peevee]

6 hours ago, Preptechmilitia said:

 what you guys think I should do? 

 

 

Have a lot of reserve money for first year repairs. But that's any plane.

 

Who is going to do your pre purchase inspection?

I hate to go down that road but it's a lot of plane for a new pilot and first time owner.

 

[orionflt]

the repair to the wing was a Major undertaking, my primary concern is the engineering of the repair and the resulting structural integrity of the wing. the aircraft was returned to service after repair by an IA, this in its self is legal but in this case may not be proper. for this type of repair I would want to see structural repair plans approved by an engineer, or a DARs sign off of the repair.

But this is just my opinion

Brian   

[gsxrpilot]

What @LANCECASPER said. 

Don Maxwell has to give it a clean recommendation or I'd be running away.

[steingar]

The other thing that bothers me is the submarine Mooney came from Tennessee, might have even been the same place.  I can't recall.  I almost got caught by that scam.

[The Other Red Baron]

Is title washing a thing with aircraft?   I guess the NTSB would have records regardless ..

[carusoam]

0) first step... Get a flight in a Bravo, fly left seat with a MAPA qualified CFII. If that is too expensive or difficult, execute plan B...

The rest are points to consider for low experienced first timers...

1) A plane that is for an experienced plane buyer.

2) that buyer will spend a lot of money getting it surveyed before paying more than he can afford to lose.

3) That same experienced buyer has a bunch of dough on hand in the event the risk doesn't fall his way.

4) experienced buyers don't expose their hand to the world because it hurts the buyer.

5) This is one of those opportunities that is going to get away.  

6) It is an opportunity that is best for a plane mechanic to take on...

7) Are you a gambler?

8) Do you have a lot of dough in case you don't get it right?

9) What will you do if you need to sell it?

10) Have you had a pre-purchase inspection done on a plane before? This could be a way to start.

11) Long Body Mooneys don't usually make good first time purchases.

12) Long Body Mooneys are great when you have lots of hours of experience.

13) As a first time buyer with low hours, what makes this choice sound interesting?

14) how many hours each day are you willing to spend getting up to speed with this dragon?

15) This may make a ton of sense if you are single, have a ton of dough, love flight training, and want to spend the next year and a half doing what ever it takes to make this idea a success.

16) If you fall short on that idea, it becomes time to sell.  Find a young, single person with a ton of dough, with the desire to take on a huge amount of risk to pilot a fantastic cross country machine...

17) make sure it is airworthy (important technical term) before taking ownership.

18) how motivated are you?

19) Why not buy a Bravo from a well known Mooney seller, have it's PPI preformed by a well known shop, and Transition Train with a qualified TTer...?

20) saving the small dollars on these details may be more expensive in the end...

This may be a good plane for you... it may also be better for somebody else.

PP thoughts only.  I was young and took risk buying an ill cared for M20C... spent half a year's salary to buy it.  Worked out moderately well for a decade.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited June 20, 2017 by carusoam

[smccray]

On 6/9/2017 at 6:18 PM, Trex20105 said:

And it is still currently posted for sale on EBay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-MOONEY-TLS-BRAVO-1700-TT-CHEAP-DEAL-OF-THE-CENTURY-/122537932027?hash=item1c87d474fb:g:j~QAAOSwt5hYf~Q0&vxp=mtr

 

So that listing was @ $100K- looks like it's now listed @ $110K: http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-MOONEY-TLS-BRAVO-1700-TT-/122557722381?hash=item1c89026f0d:g:j~QAAOSwt5hYf~Q0

Pricing all over the place!  Significant damage history, NTSB said the accident was at 1722 hrs on the airplane, the listing says 1700 TT which says to me that the plane hasn't flown much since the damage occurred in the fall of 2015, so I certainly wouldn't trust the repairs as they're proven.  I wouldn't be a buyer for this plane at any price above the value of the engine core plus the value of the avionics, which is another way to say that there has to be a buyer out there who would pay more for it than me.  I wouldn't invest the time.

If you want a good bravo of the same vintage, check the classifieds- similar vintage, same inadvertent TKS, substantially better panel, easy to pay price premium over this plane even with an engine that will need to be overhauled soon.

Edited June 20, 2017 by smccray

[smccray]

I was with you until you went here:

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

5) This is one of those opportunities that is going to get away.  

I don't see this as an opportunity, but I probably don't have the right experience.  Your purchase was a good example of solid plane that required a knowledgable buyer to understand the uniqueness of the plane and what it would take to bring it back.  This plane has substantial recent damage history.  There's a big different between a gear up 10+ years  and 1000 hours ago, and a rebuilt wing with a handful of hours on the plane since the incident.  Someone will buy the plane, and I hope it works out.  As the airframe proves itself to be reliable the value should increase, but you're not looking at a huge upside- maybe what- 20-30% since it will always sell at a discount to a NDH bravo?  So you "make" $20-30K on the airplane, but that's only after you spend $30K+ per year operating the plane to try and sell a run out Bravo for $120K- ready for the buyer to spend $75K on a new engine?  If you're banking on the market for Mooney Bravos to come back, buy a good one cheap now instead of a plane with a major recent unproven repair.

There's a ton of value in a Mooney Bravo if you can buy it right.  At that price tag I don't see it, but I've only owned one plane.  My M20J experience has been fantastic, but it has also taught me how much I don't know about maintaining a plane.

[gsxrpilot]

Over the last year, I've compiled list of 9 MooneySpace members who thought they'd found that great deal that no one else had found. In the end they each spent more getting the plane into airworthy condition than if they'd bought the most expensive, turn-key, example of the type for sale at the time.

I'm sure there are great finds out there, but unless you're name is @KLRDMD or @Alan Fox it's exceedingly unlikely that you'll find one. Kissing frogs is expensive in this game.

[Godfather]

IMO if you need to take out a loan for a plane like this it might not be the one for you...please proceed with caution and listen to the advice for a good prebuy.