IFD 540 Question - Holding

[midlifeflyer]

I know there are a number of you here who have Avidyne GPS. I'm still developing familiarity with it and have a question on setting up an ad hoc hold in which the holding fix is a DME distance from a VOR. Here's the holding clearance:

"Hold northwest of 10 mile fix on the VOR 120° radial"  (graphic attached for the hold-challenged; I've seen discussions where folks said the holding instructions were impossible)

Don't worry about EFC times or altitudes. Just the basics.

It's simple with old school VORs. With a GPS, know of two ways to do it that seem to be universal. One is to create a user waypoint at the holding fix and then set up the hold. I can do that in the 540.  The other is to bypass the extra steps of creating a waypoint and just run a courseline for the RDU 120° radial  and, old school, just watch the distance. 

I can do the first in the IFD, but not the second. I'm thinking of doing a video on setting it up in a Garmin GNS 400/500 series, a GTN 600/700 and the Avidyne. It's that last one in the Avidyne that has me stumped. 

Thanks.

[Simpson Bennett]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

The other is to bypass the extra steps of creating a waypoint and just run a courseline for the RDU 120° radial  and, old school, just watch the distance. 

Switch the IFD540 into OBS mode, make sure the cursor on the FMS page is on the VOR you want to draw a radial off of,  make sure you have "To Waypoint Information" (Top datablock in the image) or "Designated Waypoint" (Bottom datablock in the image, it is a 10.2 function that allows you to select any navaid or airport and receive bearing, radial, distance and ETE). The IFD540 Pilots Guide Section 2-14 talks some about this.

[M016576]

20 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I know there are a number of you here who have Avidyne GPS. I'm still developing familiarity with it and have a question on setting up an ad hoc hold in which the holding fix is a DME distance from a VOR. Here's the holding clearance:

"Hold northwest of 10 mile fix on the VOR 120° radial"  (graphic attached for the hold-challenged; I've seen discussions where folks said the holding instructions were impossible)

Don't worry about EFC times or altitudes. Just the basics.

It's simple with old school VORs. With a GPS, know of two ways to do it that seem to be universal. One is to create a user waypoint at the holding fix and then set up the hold. I can do that in the 540.  The other is to bypass the extra steps of creating a waypoint and just run a courseline for the RDU 120° radial  and, old school, just watch the distance. 

I can do the first in the IFD, but not the second. I'm thinking of doing a video on setting it up in a Garmin GNS 400/500 series, a GTN 600/700 and the Avidyne. It's that last one in the Avidyne that has me stumped. 

Thanks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your graphic is depicting a hold "southwest", not "northwest" of the fix.... unless North is down in this graphic...

[Simpson Bennett]

North is down in this graphic as the FMS map view is track up.  I didnt see your example until after I created the image.

[midlifeflyer]

30 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your graphic is depicting a hold "southwest", not "northwest" of the fix.... unless North is down in this graphic...

No. the hold is definitely northwest of the fix. (Although southeast of the VOR) North is up. (Assuming you are talking about my graphic)

its a common error.

[midlifeflyer]

38 minutes ago, AviSimpson said:

Switch the IFD540 into OBS mode, make sure the cursor on the FMS page is on the VOR you want to draw a radial off of,  make sure you have "To Waypoint Information" (Top datablock in the image) or "Designated Waypoint" (Bottom datablock in the image, it is a 10.2 function that allows you to select any navaid or airport and receive bearing, radial, distance and ETE). The IFD540 Pilots Guide Section 2-14 talks some about this.

Thanks. Where is the OBS mode toggle? I think that's my problem.

[Simpson Bennett]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

Thanks. Where is the OBS mode toggle? I think that's my problem.

Push in on the CDI knob (the upper right knob) wait for "OBS" to stop flashing

[M016576]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

No. the hold is definitely northwest of the fix. (Although southeast of the VOR) North is up. (Assuming you are talking about my graphic)

its a common error.

What Would you call a non-standard hold (left turn) along the same fix? Hold north west, make left turns?

Im fairly certain the cardinal direction of hold is based upon the direction of turn departing the holding fix.., so for the non published hold in this case, below the radial= south west, above (non standard) north west.  Even though, geographically, both patterns are northwest of the holding fix.

its a common error.

Edited November 18, 2016 by M016576

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

What Would you call a non-standard hold (left turn) along the same fix? Hold north west, make left turns?

Im fairly certain the cardinal direction of hold is based upon the direction of turn departing the holding fix.., so for the non published hold in this case, below the radial= south west, above (non standard) north west.  Even though, geographically, both patterns are northwest of the holding fix.

its a common error.

No, the cardinal location of the hold is based on the location of the inbound course (or the pattern) relative to the holding fix,

See the duscussion on holding pricedures beginning on Page 2-23 of the Instrument Procedures Handbook or any other instrument flight text.

Yes, left turn would be the same holding clearance, except "left turns."

[kortopates]

44 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

No, the cardinal location of the hold is based on the location of the inbound course (or the pattern) relative to the holding fix,

See the duscussion on holding pricedures beginning on Page 2-23 of the Instrument Procedures Handbook or any other instrument flight text.

Yes, left turn would be the same holding clearance, except "left turns."

Actually per AIM 5-3-8:

i) An ATC clearance requiring an aircraft to hold at a fix where the pattern is not charted will include the following:

1. Direction of holding from the the fix in terms of 8 cardinal compass points

....

5. Direction of turn if left turns are to made,....

I too would conclude the direction of holding is South West of the fix - since I also understand the cardinal direction is also taking out the ambiguity between 4 possible holding patterns at the fix described. To use it as implied, the cardinal direction is only helping to identify  which side in which case West or East would be sufficient.

[midlifeflyer]

So, I guess a number of folks think, "hold east of the XYZ VOR on the 090 degree radial " is a non-sequitur or has an inbound course that is not 270.

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Edit. I wonder whether something in the drawing, perhaps not drawing the full holding pattern, is confusing. In which quadrant is this one? Northwest or southwest?

 

[midlifeflyer]

15 hours ago, AviSimpson said:

Switch the IFD540 into OBS mode, make sure the cursor on the FMS page is on the VOR you want to draw a radial off of,  make sure you have "To Waypoint Information" (Top datablock in the image) or "Designated Waypoint" (Bottom datablock in the image, it is a 10.2 function that allows you to select any navaid or airport and receive bearing, radial, distance and ETE). The IFD540 Pilots Guide Section 2-14 talks some about this.

 

I read the section, but i guess I'm not getting it.  In the scenario I am using, I am on a direct route between two airports. The VOR is not a current waypoint but is roughly along the route.

EDIT: Ah! Eureka! Finally got it. Thank you so much @AviSimpson.

 

[kortopates]

9 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

So, I guess a number of folks think, "hold east of the XYZ VOR on the 090 degree radial " is a non-sequitur or has an inbound course that is not 270.

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Edit. I wonder whether something in the drawing, perhaps not drawing the full holding pattern, is confusing. In which quadrant is this one? Northwest or southwest?

 

I would say there is no ambiguity in any holding instruction that only uses the 4 cardinal compass points such as "hold east of the XYZ VOR on the 090 degree radial ". Its a given when the fix is a VOR or any GPS waypoint that the inbound course is the reciprocal of the radial provided in the holding instructions (assuming a radial is provided). 

For the most part the ambiguity only comes in when all 8 cardinal compass points are used; since only then would one be trying to use the second half of the cardinal compass point to resolve if the controller is truly referring to right turns by default or implying left turns. Of course if the controller includes turn direction the problem is solved or an immediate discussion will ensue to resolve.

So to comment on the picture posted, I would most often expect to the controller to issue an instruction that says simply  "Hold West on the 310 degree radial". If the controller went a step further, I would expect, "Hold South West on the 310 radial ..." since the direction from the fix is south west - not north west. But if he said, Left Turns, I would then expect North-West or just North or just West. 

I certainly understand the ambiguity of this once you include all 8 cardinal compass points because I have seen nothing in the FAA literature that clearly points this out beyond the words of the AIM that say " Direction of holding from the the fix "; which is why so many of us interpret it exactly as M016576 stated so well as "based upon the direction of turn departing the holding fix". 

As a CFI, that is continually learning, I've looked at all the obvious FAA sources of this and have found nothing that entirely resolves this or goes a step past what the AIM states to make the bit of the leap that M016576 words do as the direction departing the holding fix. But I have felt that is most consistent with the AIM, the least ambiguous and if we can assume is correct says, it says it better than the AIM does IMO. But I would sure would like to see a more detailed FAA written interpretation that clearly makes the distinction if either of you know of one. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by kortopates

[midlifeflyer]

33 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I would say there is no ambiguity in any holding instruction that only uses the 4 cardinal compass points such as "hold east of the XYZ VOR on the 090 degree radial ". Its a given when the fix is a VOR or any GPS waypoint that the inbound course is the reciprocal of the radial provided in the holding instructions (assuming a radial is provided). 

For the most part the ambiguity only comes in when all 8 cardinal compass points are used; since only then would one be trying to use the second half of the cardinal compass point to resolve if the controller is truly referring to right turns by default or implying left turns. Of course if the controller includes turn direction the problem is solved or an immediate discussion will ensue to resolve.

So to comment on the picture posted, I would most often expect to the controller to issue an instruction that says simply  "Hold West on the 310 degree radial". If the controller went a step further, I would expect, "Hold South West on the 310 radial ..." since the direction from the fix is south west - not north west. But if he said, Left Turns, I would then expect North-West or just North or just West. 

I certainly understand the ambiguity of this once you include all 8 cardinal compass points because I have seen nothing in the FAA literature that clearly points this out beyond the words of the AIM that say " Direction of holding from the the fix "; which is why so many of us interpret it exactly as M016576 stated so well as "based upon the direction of turn departing the holding fix". 

As a CFI, that is continually learning, I've looked at all the obvious FAA sources of this and have found nothing that entirely resolves this or goes a step past what the AIM states to make the bit of the leap that M016576 words do as the direction departing the holding fix. But I have felt that is most consistent with the AIM, the least ambiguous and if we can assume is correct says, it says it better than the AIM does IMO. But I would sure would like to see a more detailed FAA written interpretation that clearly makes the distinction if either of you know of one. 

That's where we differ. I don't see any ambiguity and I see that holding pattern being clearly in the northwest quadrant, whether right or left turns.

BTW, sticking with the original subject, enter that hold in the Avidyne IFD (or the Garmin GTN) and guess which quadrant it says the hold is located in. If you have the sim, pich a waypoint and put in an inbound course if, say, 140 in the hold dialog.

[PeytonM]

From Rod Machado's Instrument Pilot's Survival Manual, 2nd Edition

[midlifeflyer]

10 hours ago, PeytonM said:

From Rod Machado's Instrument Pilot's Survival Manual, 2nd Edition

Thanks @PeytonM. Machado does great stuff.

I've seen this type of issue come up way too many times, although this is the first time I've come across folks thinking the direction of turn has something to do with the quadrant. 

But it is a symptom of what I think is  the biggest problem with holding. It is  a very simple concept is taught in a way that makes it insanely complicated. In this example, how hard it it to say the cardinal location of the hold is the quadrant in which the inbound course is located? That's the way I teach it. As an example, this is the way I "draw" a holding clearance. I use it in flight but it's primarily a teaching tool.

 

[carusoam]

Follow up question...

With the prevalence of GPS, are hold legs still set by time on the inbound leg or are they moving to distance?

It has been years since I was IFR hold capable....

Best regards,

-a-

[CliffyDeuce]

Midlifeflier - exactly! I think of drawing a line FROM the direction (NW, in this case), then figure out the details of the fix. Fix, navaid, and turn direction are all independent of that.

A - timing is still the standard, but many of us default to requesting distance if not specified. Much easier to hold that way...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

[M016576]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Thanks @PeytonM. Machado does great stuff.

I've seen this type of issue come up way too many times, although this is the first time I've come across folks thinking the direction of turn has something to do with the quadrant. 

But it is a symptom of what I think is  the biggest problem with holding. It is  a very simple concept is taught in a way that makes it insanely complicated. In this example, how hard it it to say the cardinal location of the hold is the quadrant in which the inbound course is located? That's the way I teach it. As an example, this is the way I "draw" a holding clearance. I use it in flight but it's primarily a teaching tool.

 

Another problem with holding, is, if there is a non-intuitive, commonly mis-applied concept- then perhaps the wording or clearances should be altered to make it non-ambiguous.  Oh, and finally, holding is rarely executed "for real."  Mostly just to maintain currency.

I stand corrected, after some research the cardinal direction is indeed the geographic position in relation to the fix.  I am happy to say that in my 16 year career I've never been issued a non-published hold, and while your scenario would not have gotten me violated, as the instructions are clear without the cardinal direction, it would certainly have led to me "questioning" the controller (I.e. Shining my butt).

[carusoam]

The clearance being delivered in a standard format must be from an ancient format.  They essentially give the fine detail prior to giving the coarse detail...

old way...

House Number, street name, town, state.... (great tradition, but challenging to use)

 

new way...

State, town, street, house number

 

Anybody studying how memory works and fails appreciates the new way.  If you are challenged by the capacity of your working memory, the new way lets you dump the easy parts and allows you to focus on the finer detail.

 

Telling you to hold NW of, before telling you the hold point, fills your working memory in reverse order.  But they probably saved a word or two at the cost of some confusion....

Hence, the right everything down first...  probably word for word...

Holds are less frequent with all the modern technology, but when they happen, it's going to be a crowded area with some crummy weather... 

 

great thread, it brought cliffy2 out into the conversation. Welcome out in the open Cliffy! 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[peevee]

25 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The clearance being delivered in a standard format must be from an ancient format.  They essentially give the fine detail prior to giving the coarse detail...

 

No, not really. The holding fix is your new clearance limit. Cleared to. Next is what to do when you get there, hold. Then then as published or random instructions. It's a logical format.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, M016576 said:

Another problem with holding, is, if there is a non-intuitive, commonly mis-applied concept- then perhaps the wording or clearances should be altered to make it non-ambiguous.  Oh, and finally, holding is rarely executed "for real."  Mostly just to maintain currency.

I stand corrected, after some research the cardinal direction is indeed the geographic position in relation to the fix.  I am happy to say that in my 16 year career I've never been issued a non-published hold, and while your scenario would not have gotten me violated, as the instructions are clear without the cardinal direction, it would certainly have led to me "questioning" the controller (I.e. Shining my butt).

Agreed. Holds are rarely issued for real. I got my instrument rating in 1992 and have been issued a total of two holds by ATC. One was on my checkride. Really. I was enroute to my last approach, into a Class C airport. After telling me to expect a certain ILS, they had a runway change and ATC gave me a hold to keep me out of the way while they re-routed other traffic. The second was to a one-in-one-out airport below radar coverage.

But here's the rub. Two of them, actually.

Both were non-published holds at a VOR. And, like most nonpublished holds given by ATC, they involved an inbound course I was already flying, so they were simple direct entries. (That's the good news)

But a props of the present discussion, you may find the second rub interesting. The entire holding clearance was "Hold southeast of the XYZ VOR." Period.

I would still disagree with non-intuitive." Mis-taught, definitely, and that the source of most misunderstanding. Not just of holds.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

The clearance being delivered in a standard format must be from an ancient format.  They essentially give the fine detail prior to giving the coarse detail...

 

I think folks just process things differently.

I see it exactly the opposite. If you look at my linked video you'll see that I am drawing the holding clearance exactly in the order it is given. The initial "Hold [direction]" gives immediate situational awareness of where the inbound course is, no matter what the holding fix is. "Hold E of" always means the holding pattern is on the east side of something with an inbound course of 270 degrees, no matter what "something" comes next.

I am curious though, in what order would you issue the clearance.

[mike_elliott]

I was given a holding clearance to a NOTAM'd OTS NDB at Flora, Il. one day when Midwest M20 had an open house. There were Mooneys stacked up at the VOR, I thought it unusual that ATC did this. I was just as guilty as I accepted it, did a very slow lap and let them know I could be down and cancelled in less than 5 min, so I was cleared for the approach then. The NDB was easily identified with my GPS and SA was with the class leading anywhere map software (at that time). In fact, most of the holds I have been given in real IFR has been at NDB's. I haven't been given a hold lately, as I typically will negotiate and slow down to allow things to "clear" up.

[peevee]

I think you guys overthink this. Controllers don't give random holding often either. I think most don't care where you hold as long as it's at the altitude they give and the vicinity of the fix they want. It's simply airplane storage.  Ymmv. 

 

Think of it as "go here because I can't deal with you right now" 

Edited November 19, 2016 by peevee