Rocket prop strikes?

[whiskytango]

I am seriously considering getting a 252 Rocket conversion.  I remember reading somewhere on MS that because of the heavier engine weight on the medium-body airframe, Rockets are more susceptible to prop strikes than other models.  Is this a significant problem that Rocket owners must be constantly guarding against?  In my C, E, and K model Mooneys I always felt that as long as you aren't taxiing over rough terrain and don't try to force the nosewheel down on a long landing there was no prop strike problem.

[Openwheeler3]

"In my C, E, and K model Mooneys I always felt that as long as you aren't taxiing over rough terrain and don't try to force the nosewheel down on a long landing there was no prop strike problem."

 

Pretty much the same with rockets. 

[Yooper Rocketman]

I had one shortly after purchasing mine, in a situation I would NOT have had with my F model.  I was taxiing on a ramp where they were doing construction work and a large dump truck was driving past me fairly close.  I veered on the ramp, watching him more closely than the ramp, and taxied over a drainage grate with about a 1 1/2" drop.  It was enough to hear a funny noise.  Getting out I found damage just enough past my IA dressing out (in other words, $2000 back in 2001).

I called Darwin Conrad and he recommended a couple things.  Make sure the nose tire is at 49 lbs!  Change the nose gear donuts every 4-5 years.  I've done both and added one more precaution.  I taxi with the elevator all the way pulled back.  It will raise the nose up another inch just from the prop wash.  Never even had a close call after implementing those three procedures.

[aviatoreb]

47 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I had one shortly after purchasing mine, in a situation I would NOT have had with my F model.  I was taxiing on a ramp where they were doing construction work and a large dump truck was driving past me fairly close.  I veered on the ramp, watching him more closely than the ramp, and taxied over a drainage grate with about a 1 1/2" drop.  It was enough to hear a funny noise.  Getting out I found damage just enough past my IA dressing out (in other words, $2000 back in 2001).

I called Darwin Conrad and he recommended a couple things.  Make sure the nose tire is at 49 lbs!  Change the nose gear donuts every 4-5 years.  I've done both and added one more precaution.  I taxi with the elevator all the way pulled back.  It will raise the nose up another inch just from the prop wash.  Never even had a close call after implementing those three procedures.

Wow - great idea the elevators.

[whiskytango]

5 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I had one shortly after purchasing mine, in a situation I would NOT have had with my F model.  I was taxiing on a ramp where they were doing construction work and a large dump truck was driving past me fairly close.  I veered on the ramp, watching him more closely than the ramp, and taxied over a drainage grate with about a 1 1/2" drop.  It was enough to hear a funny noise.  Getting out I found damage just enough past my IA dressing out (in other words, $2000 back in 2001).

I called Darwin Conrad and he recommended a couple things.  Make sure the nose tire is at 49 lbs!  Change the nose gear donuts every 4-5 years.  I've done both and added one more precaution.  I taxi with the elevator all the way pulled back.  It will raise the nose up another inch just from the prop wash.  Never even had a close call after implementing those three procedures.

Thanks, this is very helpful information.

[Danb]

When I got my transition training in the Mooney my instructor taught me to always taxi with the yoke back.

[David Mazer]

As a previous Rocket flier I can tell you that I felt I was going to strike the prop on landing early in my Rocket experience by landing nose high but not higher than I had typically landed with other planes.  I decided, with no real information than my surmising, that the shorter body with the heavier engine resulted in loss of sufficient elevator authority at slow speeds to allow the nose to come down slowly.  It felt like it dropped like a stone but never did strike the prop.  I developed a flatter landing attitude and everything was good from there.  I also taxied very, very slowly over rough ramps or ramps I didn't know intimately.

In total, the performance of the Rocket was/is well worth the necessary adjustments.  Every plane I've ever flown has required some specific technique so why shouldn't the Rocket be worth it too.  It is.

[carusoam]

This was the largest unknown I had while considering purchasing a Missile...

MS was really new, and there were very few Rocket and Missile owners around to ask.

My concern was strictly how good of a pilot I would need to be to keep from burying the nose under the extra weight that is added up front.

When you guys get a chance, take a look at the tail feathers of a Long Body... They have some differences to account for the WnB.

The on the ground attitude seems a few degrees taller as well.  It might help with the errant taxi maneuvers...

there is no substitute for good taxi procedures...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Jeff_S]

My Ovation has a 5 degree nose up attitude on the ground. This might be slightly more than average for the type, possibly because of the constant weight of the A/C unit in the hat rack. Carusoam, curious what your attitude is on the ground...your PLANE'S attitude, that is!

[carusoam]

Jeff,

Mine is about the same as yours.  My C, in comparison, was more like 0°.  

My first few flights with the O, I kept resetting the attitude indicator to 0° prior to taxi.  Old habits take a while to overcome.

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, David Mazer said:

As a previous Rocket flier I can tell you that I felt I was going to strike the prop on landing early in my Rocket experience by landing nose high but not higher than I had typically landed with other planes.  I decided, with no real information than my surmising, that the shorter body with the heavier engine resulted in loss of sufficient elevator authority at slow speeds to allow the nose to come down slowly.  It felt like it dropped like a stone but never did strike the prop.  I developed a flatter landing attitude and everything was good from there.  I also taxied very, very slowly over rough ramps or ramps I didn't know intimately.

In total, the performance of the Rocket was/is well worth the necessary adjustments.  Every plane I've ever flown has required some specific technique so why shouldn't the Rocket be worth it too.  It is.

I don't have any rocket time, but it reads like you're saying that the tail stalls before the wing?

[aviatoreb]

Just now, Shadrach said:

I don't have any rocket time, but it reads like you're saying that the tail stalls before the wing?

That is not my experience.

[Shadrach]

13 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

That is not my experience.

I didn't not think so.

[David Mazer]

10 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I don't have any rocket time, but it reads like you're saying that the tail stalls before the wing?

I'm not saying that either.  After the mains are on the ground, the nose drops very quickly if I used my previous landing attitude.  While I have no direct information to confirm this, I was told at some time that the extra 10 in in the long body was just to increase the tails leverage for the larger engine at slow speeds (i.e., landing).

[FlyDave]

12 hours ago, Danb said:

When I got my transition training in the Mooney my instructor taught me to always taxi with the yoke back.

Dan,

In my Bravo I only pull the yoke back for turns - makes for tighter turns.

The Bravo has a little more prop clearance than the Rocket and I haven't felt I was going to hit anything going straight ahead.

Dave

[aviatoreb]

i got the 4 blade mt prop that both significantly increases prop clearance but also reduces weight on the nose by 35lb or so (38? i forgot) thus moving check aft significantly.

[carusoam]

Ways to avoid prop strikes in Mooneys...

1) Develop the landing skills of Don Kaye.  There's a video that explains how he does it...

2) Use the technology of the AOA.  There's a device for that...

3) Go the old fashion way.  Know the WnB, select the proper air speed, power, and flap settings.  Know the right attitude and trim for it.

4) Always land on the Mains... you'll know when you don't...

5) Bounced landings come from too much speed.  In the event of a bounce, the go around is the best option.

6) fighting the bounce without going around leads to erratic oscillations with stronger AOAs, the third bounce is often the prop strike. Done really incorrectly breaks the nosegear.  (Not very common)

7) Location of the main wheels to the Cg goes a long way to being able to hold the nose off the ground.  A skilled pilot can keep the nose of a C152 off the ground with a mild power setting, and taxi at a rapid pace.

8) 201er can count the seconds between main wheels touching and the nose being placed on the ground.  Ross demonstrates similar skills in his videos.

9) I used to be able to count the micro seconds between the mains and the nose. Counting that quickly is an engineering skill. 

10) There is often the ability to move the Cg back within the envelope.  This puts the Cg closer to the main wheels with a noticeable effect.  Landings get smoother with passengers in the back or tools in the cargo hold.

11) A good Mooney pilot can sense the right airspeed to land with.  The right speed is slow enough to give a good AOA without turning it into a long float.

12) A long body will drag it's tail prior to stalling the tail... neither option is good.

13) Balance is a really cool tool to use.  Whip out the WnB app.  Tune it up.  Experiment with small adjustments in weight.  Know that the logged WnB of the plane may be off over the decades that it was originally measured...

Fun PP stuff.  Not a CFI or mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[whiskytango]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Ways to avoid prop strikes in Mooneys...

1) Develop the landing skills of Don Kaye.  There's a video that explains how he does it...

2) Use the technology of the AOA.  There's a device for that...

3) Go the old fashion way.  Know the WnB, select the proper air speed, power, and flap settings.  Know the right attitude and trim for it.

4) Always land on the Mains... you'll know when you don't...

5) Bounced landings come from too much speed.  In the event of a bounce, the go around is the best option.

6) fighting the bounce without going around leads to erratic oscillations with stronger AOAs, the third bounce is often the prop strike. Done really incorrectly breaks the nosegear.  (Not very common)

7) Location of the main wheels to the Cg goes a long way to being able to hold the nose off the ground.  A skilled pilot can keep the nose of a C152 off the ground with a mild power setting, and taxi at a rapid pace.

8) 201er can count the seconds between main wheels touching and the nose being placed on the ground.  Ross demonstrates similar skills in his videos.

9) I used to be able to count the micro seconds between the mains and the nose. Counting that quickly is an engineering skill. 

10) There is often the ability to move the Cg back within the envelope.  This puts the Cg closer to the main wheels with a noticeable effect.  Landings get smoother with passengers in the back or tools in the cargo hold.

10) A good Mooney pilot can sense the right airspeed to land with.  The right speed is slow enough to give a good AOA without turning it into a long float.

12) A long body will drag it's tail prior to stalling the tail... neither option is good.

13) Balance is a really cool tool to use.  Whip out the WnB app.  Tune it up.  Experiment with small adjustments in weight.  Know that the logged WnB of the plane may be off over the decades that it was originally measured...

Fun PP stuff.  Not a CFI or mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks carusoam.  This is all good.  I especially agree with your comment about Don Kaye's videos - they are excellent.

The earlier posts about taxiing the Rocket with full back elevator at all times are interesting.  I was taught in my C-150 days to taxi in a strong headwind / quartering crosswind with full forward elevator and ailerons set to roll in the direction of the crosswind (unless it was a quartering tailwind - then you would use full back elevator).  It sounds like this technique is not a good idea in the Rocket.  Maybe the high-wing C-150 is more susceptible to a loss of control while taxiing in high winds than a low-wing Mooney.

[carusoam]

C150...

high wing, light weight, and Cg close to where the MLG are....  (really, better said, MLG closer to where the Cg is...)

The taxi and wind control inputs are the same.  When and how much will be the difference...

This is why the whole logic chain is helpful.  

It's a bit funny, but not all planes have the MLG in the same place... without doing the math, this is visible by observing the ease and control of soft field departures.

You probably won't see many people holding the nose wheel off the ground indefinitely with a Mooney.

Ever see a row of Cessnas after a good calm snow fall?  They all look like they are trying out their VTO/L technique.

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Yooper Rocketman]

On 10/21/2016 at 10:03 PM, aviatoreb said:

That is not my experience.

Nor mine

[Yooper Rocketman]

I've had flat nose tires on landing twice in the last 4 years.  I had the elevator back in my stomach trying to stop it without a prop strike.  Had more clearance than I thought when I got out.  You definitely need to watch your loading and W&B.  I have holes in the seat rails for full aft on the passenger seat.  Have no idea how they got there   but that helps a ton with a heavy passenger.  I've even made them ride in the back seat if I couldn't make it work.

Tom

[Guest]

On October 21, 2016 at 10:20 AM, Yooper Rocketman said:

I had one shortly after purchasing mine, in a situation I would NOT have had with my F model.  I was taxiing on a ramp where they were doing construction work and a large dump truck was driving past me fairly close.  I veered on the ramp, watching him more closely than the ramp, and taxied over a drainage grate with about a 1 1/2" drop.  It was enough to hear a funny noise.  Getting out I found damage just enough past my IA dressing out (in other words, $2000 back in 2001).

I called Darwin Conrad and he recommended a couple things.  Make sure the nose tire is at 49 lbs!  Change the nose gear donuts every 4-5 years.  I've done both and added one more precaution.  I taxi with the elevator all the way pulled back.  It will raise the nose up another inch just from the prop wash.  Never even had a close call after implementing those three procedures.

Tom,

As well as your caution on tire pressure I would think that the brand of tire would be important.  

Clarence

[Cyril Gibb]

On 2016-10-22 at 7:53 PM, whiskytango said:

Thanks carusoam.  This is all good.  I especially agree with your comment about Don Kaye's videos - they are excellent.

The earlier posts about taxiing the Rocket with full back elevator at all times are interesting.  I was taught in my C-150 days to taxi in a strong headwind / quartering crosswind with full forward elevator and ailerons set to roll in the direction of the crosswind (unless it was a quartering tailwind - then you would use full back elevator).  It sounds like this technique is not a good idea in the Rocket.  Maybe the high-wing C-150 is more susceptible to a loss of control while taxiing in high winds than a low-wing Mooney.

That's the opposite of how I was trained.  Full back elevator with a strong tailwind could flip a C150.

[peevee]

I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I forget that stupid diagram. I tend to dive I to the wind and climb away from. You want that nose planted. 

 

https://goo.gl/images/Pv759q

[Hank]

1 hour ago, peevee said:

I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I forget that stupid diagram. I tend to dive I to the wind and climb away from. You want that nose planted. 

 

https://goo.gl/images/Pv759q

I don't bother trying to remember the picture or the rules. Whichever way the wind is blowing from, I put the controls on that side "down." No problems, no trying to remember, no silly acronyms. (I can always remember TOMATO FLAMES, but not what everything stands for . . . ) If the wind is blowing from the right, I just put the right aileron down. If it's quartering from the right rear, then right aileron and the elevator are down. It works for me.