Stalls and slow flight poll/discussion.

[ArtVandelay]

So when the instructors had us doing all these stalls, I was deathly worried about dropping a wing.

Here is what I found out.   Non event.  

Coordinated flight prevents a wing from dropping and the stall is as docile as it comes.  The Mooney drops ...  

You can not make blanket statements about all Mooneys. The short bodies are more docile, I believe the Js are far less docile if taken to a full stall, not just the buffet and if anything less than perfectly coordinated.

[PTK]

31 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

You can not make blanket statements about all Mooneys. The short bodies are more docile, I believe the Js are far less docile if taken to a full stall, not just the buffet and if anything less than perfectly coordinated.

Agreed. My wxperience has been that I would have to be asleep not to notice the stall sequence of events. There's time to wake up and recover between buffet and wing drop. Keeping coordinated here will keep you awake. 

[Ned Gravel]

Teejay:

Granted.  My statements apply to only my aircraft.  The instructors came with O's, J's, and K's.

[Ned Gravel]

9 hours ago, 201er said:

Then do you feel that it was a fair simulation of how a real stall might occur because you fly with similar coordination?

or

Are you deathly worried about real world stalls still?

Mike:

I am a scared pilot.  Spins still scare me in a Mooney.  Stalls not so much, provided they are at sufficient altitude that loosing 200-500 feet will not touch the "ground" edge of the envelope.  

Part of the training was to practice how to feel for coordinated flight, including glancing at the ball.  So I learned to give up some bad habits and work the ball more.  To me, it was not so much about a fair simulation (although I am from the school of we train how we fight/fly) but about knowing and recognizing the parameters.  That alone will enhance my chances of staying in coordinated flight throughout any evolution - as one means of avoiding a spin if I am too dumb to avoid a stall.

This OK?

[Yetti]

My transition instructor said they all are a bit different.  some planes fly better than others, which makes sense given that the stall strips are hand placed and test flown.  Mine seemed very docile

[Danb]

On September 16, 2016 at 4:40 PM, cnoe said:

But quickly, before the fat lady appears (no singing necessary) I'd like to briefly summarize and comment on the poll question.

It is notable that essentially 60% of respondents have practiced a stall in the past 12 months while 40% have not.

Also, about 15% indicated that they have NEVER stalled their Mooney.

I will make no judgement as to the merits of stall training.

But it would be interesting to see if any correlation exists between the pilots' age and their propensity for regular (or even occasional) stall training.

My assumption would be the older pilots would be more apt to practice slow flight, stalls etc, since these were an integral part of our training of which it appears they are getting away from. 

[Danb]

Mike I to was at the MHT-PPP, about my sixth PPP in the last 6 years, I met Ned and as the main purpose doing stalls the the PPP,s in my opinion is to show the necessity to fly in controlled flight i.e. ball in the middle, the illustrations were to depict how docile most stalls are in coordinated flight along with associated recovery technique. I have a long body and had two J models, the wings are the same as is the recovery tech. Many planes out there may be out of rig along with uncoordinated flight shows the need to relearn what we learned acquiring our ppl .

 

 

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, teejayevans said:

You can not make blanket statements about all Mooneys. The short bodies are more docile, I believe the Js are far less docile if taken to a full stall, not just the buffet and if anything less than perfectly coordinated.

I used to fly a C and now fly a K (short body to mid-body). I don't notice an appreciable difference. Both seem to be about the same with stalls and slow flight.  My K does have two stall strips per wing, while the C had one per wing.

NMMV.

[carusoam]

Do the power on stalls with extra hp get much different?

More torque, and less rudder authority at low air speed could get interesting...

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

I have 2 stall strips, but they are the same size so I don't see the point.

My first stall with my J was complete stall, I manhandled it pretty good, not knowing, resulted in a 90 degree wing drop, my transition instructor was quicker on the recovery, he is Thunderbird pilot these days, his response..."lets not do that again". After that I far more gentle and stop at the buffet.

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, Yetti said:

My transition instructor said they all are a bit different.  some planes fly better than others, which makes sense given that the stall strips are hand placed and test flown.  Mine seemed very docile

The all are. Some more docile than others, but, so far anyway, all 30 or so makes/models of singles have responded to coordinated flight and picking up a stalled wind with rudder. Even those makes models with "known" instabilities.

Case in point: I recently started working with a student pilot who owns his own airplane - a Piper Tomahawk. I think it may be slightly miss-rigged since it has a tendency to drop the left wing in a stall. And, bogeyman stories aside,  they were intentionally designed to need to be actively controlled by the pilot. 

Anyway, after the student tried to lift that dropped wing with only aileron before lowering the nose to break the stall and I took control to prevent a spin, I decided to demonstrate a falling leaf stall to show how coordination makes a difference. 

I admit to some trepidation in doing so. It was about the 4th time in the airplane. I hadn't even been in a Tomahawk for about 13 years when I started with the student, could not help but have been affected by all the "Traumahawk" stories, and had never even attempted a falling leaf in one before.

Complete non-event. No wing drop, no change of direction, just bobbing up and down of the nose at 1200-1500 FPM descent as I held full aft yoke and danced on the rudders

[jetdriven]

The J's and the E's I've stalled were completely conventional in behavior and recovery.  The Acclaim I did training in has a boldfaced warning about how full stalls could cause loss of control and huge altitude altitude loss, but this plane was easy.  I'm not saying disrespect the machine, but don't be scared of it, either. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by jetdriven

[Bob_Belville]

I spent most of 1.4 hours at night at MHT PPP at 5000' doing slow flight and stalls - clean, landing mode, level and in left and right bank, Lee Fox opened my eyes re my Mooney's capabilities. We spent quite a bit of time below 50 kts. Stalls took a lot of persistence to get there. Once fully stalled recovery was absolutely straightforward. Docile would not be an overstatement.  

[Danb]

On September 16, 2016 at 4:40 PM, cnoe said:

 

It is notable that essentially 60% of respondents have practiced a stall in the past 12 months while 40% have not.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I spent most of 1.4 hours at night at MHT PPP at 5000' doing slow flight and stalls - clean, landing mode, level and in left and right bank, Lee Fox opened my eyes re my Mooney's capabilities. We spent quite a bit of time below 50 kts. Stalls took a lot of persistence to get there. Once fully stalled recovery was absolutely straightforward. Docile would not be an overstatement.  

Based on most of the responses why are there so many stall spin accidents STILL?

A chute doesn't help in the pattern, no seriously are MSers more competent since we're on a forum striving to get better.

ie, the stall/ AOA conversation, the way we critique accidents etc, does all this add to our safety?

 

[N9201A]

Maybe. Depends on one's mindset, doesn't it? I don't believe just being on a forum makes one a more competent pilot; it just makes one a pilot on a forum.

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, N9201A said:

Maybe. Depends on one's mindset, doesn't it? I don't believe just being on a forum makes one a more competent pilot; it just makes one a pilot on a forum.

It is probably the case that the folks who are on this forum or similar are already interested in learning and getting better. I've accumulated 45 FAAST Wings credits in the past year and I'll pick up another 10-15 at Summit. Trying to keep my old head in the game.

[N9201A]

And I too came to this forum with that intent. But again, that's mindset. And it's not universal. The mindset may lead one to the medium, but that's different than the medium = mindset.

[PTK]

2 hours ago, Danb said:

 

Based on most of the responses why are there so many stall spin accidents STILL?

A chute doesn't help in the pattern, no seriously are MSers more competent since we're on a forum striving to get better.

ie, the stall/ AOA conversation, the way we critique accidents etc, does all this add to our safety?

 

The reason we still have stall/spin fatalities in the pattern is due to a lack of proper training in the recognition and therefore prevention. The best way to deal with an unpleasant situation is to prevent it. And to prevent it we must be able to recognize what the airplane will do and when.

It is not due to a lack of more gizmos and gadgets. 

[N9201A]

You also practice stalls, Bob. Chuck's informal poll showed a significant number of MSers who responded never do...and they're probably a higher percentage in the general pilot population.

Again, mindset. Is a pilot who doesn't practice slow flight and stalls as sharp as they would be if they did? Being an MSer doesn't affect that analysis.

[N9201A]

Rod Machado has a great discussion of why these accidents continue to occur and what he recommends for training, it's worth a read if you've not seen it.

[Danb]

Bob you said old not me.

[Danb]

Curious why the instructors today do not want to teach stalls and  associated recovery technique's

[cnoe]

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/september/pilot/ltl

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jsavage3]

12 minutes ago, Danb said:

Curious why the instructors today do not want to teach stalls and  associated recovery technique's

Danb, I've noticed this comment being made several times in this thread and I'm just not seeing it. Having myself been an instructor for 25+ years, any instructor I've ever come across has always been eager to demonstrate and share their knowledge of stall training. Spins are a prohibited maneuver in the Mooney, but one must know what a spin is in order to identify and correct the issue. I propose that any instructor worth his salt would not let ANYONE slip by and not have thorough knowledge of as well as having demonstrated their proficincy in min controllable airspeed, full stalls and spin ID and recovery techniques. I suspect that an instructor who doesn't ensure this level of training is accomplished is actually perpetuating this idea of one "being afraid" of stalls. Knowledge and experience conquers fear. The only stalls that cause me alarm are low altitude stalls...and I never do these, intentional or unintentional. Stalls up high? No problem, I'll do them all day long and have fun doing it!

So, find me an instructor who won't give you a run for your money with some serious stall training and I'll pour salt in my wound!

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

Curious why the instructors today do not want to teach stalls and  associated recovery technique's

I don't see this, unless what you are talking about is transition training. We have been doing stalls as I'm progressing toward my PPL. My understanding is that the old check-ride standards for stalls was to the first indication of a stall (horn/light) but the new ACS standard that was introduced in June 2016 requires continuing past the first indication until the stall is fully developed.