Steep Turn Base to Final

[N9201A]

And no I don't have an AoA indicator, but that doesn't mean I reject the significance of AoA.

And for anyone feeling left out, that they can't be a "formation guy" (or gal), well shoot. Just come out and fly with us, I'll make sure you get a safety if I can't safety you myself. We were all non-formators once too, but those "mean kids" actually were all right, once we got down to flying (as opposed to sitting at computer screens pontificating). And for me, the flying is where it's at.

Someone wanted to put up a thousand dollars somewhere here for something. Now I'm not gambling my kids' college money, but were I to do so, it's a safe bet after trying formation, you won't come away a worse pilot. That's a fact...

Facts are facts...deal with them or not, but don't expect those that know better to buy your version of reality.

[Danb]

On September 4, 2016 at 6:20 PM, N9201A said:

"Leave door open for parrot"...that's funny, I don't know anything about birds but a dog wouldn't leave its owner. Would a parrot?

Actually if the bird is in flight in the cabin, does it count towards gross weight?

Hopefully we'll hopefully we will have some choices in the north east/ mid Atlantic to get some formation flying.

[Yetti]

Oh formation bashing that is where this thread is going.  like the guy doing an overhead break taking  up all the radio space with his wing at the standard saturday burger destination during lunch time arrival.  dang bonanza pilots.   His lot was already cast with me since I have him on video "parking" his plane prop washing all the planes beside him as he turned it into the space instead of just hand pushing it back. 

[PTK]

On September 5, 2016 at 10:22 AM, 201er said:

...You're missing out a lot if your piloting skills prohibit you from flying into ~3000ft GA airports without approaches and maybe some hills around...However, given a choice, coming into an uncontrolled airport, I prefer keeping patterns tight. There's mor control that way...

...you can pussyfoot your way around the pattern, never turn steep, etc.

Define "more control". Your own video doesn't support this.

I routinely make the first turn off to main ramo at my home field which is about 1200 feet. How much shorter in feet are you landing with your AOA gadget? (hint: In your video you pussyfoot your way through final and eat up more than that in your "energy cutting" final overshoot and landing. Oh...but I forgot that was "intentional" !?)  

Also you have evaded the question: How different is your Vso you fly with your AOA from what's in your POH? 

[MyNameIsNobody]

7 hours ago, N9201A said:

And no I don't have an AoA indicator, but that doesn't mean I reject the significance of AoA.

And for anyone feeling left out, that they can't be a "formation guy" (or gal), well shoot. Just come out and fly with us, I'll make sure you get a safety if I can't safety you myself. We were all non-formators once too, but those "mean kids" actually were all right, once we got down to flying (as opposed to sitting at computer screens pontificating). And for me, the flying is where it's at.

Someone wanted to put up a thousand dollars somewhere here for something. Now I'm not gambling my kids' college money, but were I to do so, it's a safe bet after trying formation, you won't come away a worse pilot. That's a fact...

Facts are facts...deal with them or not, but don't expect those that know better to buy your version of reality.

No thanks.

[MyNameIsNobody]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Oh formation bashing that is where this thread is going.  like the guy doing an overhead break taking  up all the radio space with his wing at the standard saturday burger destination during lunch time arrival.  dang bonanza pilots.   His lot was already cast with me since I have him on video "parking" his plane prop washing all the planes beside him as he turned it into the space instead of just hand pushing it back. 

ADD much Yetti?  It's formation not Bo bashing...

 

[Yetti]

best formation flight I saw was T-28 and a Mooney on base turn.   I was out riding my bike.   The Mooney looked like a toy next to the T=28.   Pretty sure both pilots knew what they were doing based on their resumes.   I do not.

[Yetti]

Not sure why birds have to die, but killing two with one stone seems appropriate. actually three, this thread needs to die also.  Look squirrel

[Danb]

my goal is to land without incident, I don't enter contests to see if I can make the first turnoff, not entering the crossing runway would be a good thing.

[N9201A]

Danb if you PM me I will send you contact for NE group which have become very active. Seven pilots meeting this weekend to practice and they're doing a fly-in in a couple weeks. There has been a lot of growth in NE in the last year. So everyone in the NE wanting to should be able to fly with us in 2017.

[N9201A]

Or just go to website and click "join forum" at bottom of home page and you'll be on email list and will get updates and know what's happening before it is posted on website.

[salty]

After reading this thread I wonder how any of us have survived landing a Mooney. 

[thinwing]

At the beginning of this thread ,Mike mentions his glider experience as an adjunct to his power flight ability.Giders have a device that works a lot like a throttle..only opposite...airbrakes..so imagine your pattern speed is 50 kts and your present l/d is 32 to one.Too high on base or final...engage and your l/d (glide ratio) just went to 10 to one with no speed change..looks like a undershoot?retract brakes and your back to 32/1...just like adding power by throttle..no steep turns and certainly no slipping needed.Based on my glider/ sailplane experience ,I do not see any correlation between aoa and energy management via glider experience...I do see a correlation via air speeds 

[201er]

Just now, thinwing said:

At the beginning of this thread ,Mike mentions his glider experience as an adjunct to his power flight ability.Giders have a device that works a lot like a throttle..only opposite...airbrakes..so imagine your pattern speed is 50 kts and your present l/d is 32 to one.Too high on base or final...engage and your l/d (glide ratio) just went to 10 to one with no speed change..looks like a undershoot?retract brakes and your back to 32/1...just like adding power by throttle..no steep turns and certainly no slipping needed.Based on my glider/ sailplane experience ,I do not see any correlation between aoa and energy management via glider experience...I do see a correlation via air speeds 

Sounds like you haven't had to demonstrate a ~200ft rope-break/turn back to the runway. The first thing you do is plow the nose down into the ground before making that steep turn back.

 

[thinwing]

Of course I have Mike...it's a required maneuver for the license...by the way the rule at Minden is rope brake below 200 land straight ahead!!

[thinwing]

And as your video shows..your brother had the brakes out the whole way!No steep turns ,no slipping..etc..You proved my point!

[201er]

Just now, thinwing said:

And as your video shows..your brother had the brakes out the whole way!No steep turns ,no slipping..etc..You proved my point!

Are you blind? Included all of the above if you'd actually bother to watch.

[N9201A]

Yes everyone should fly within their limits. I have found my limits have changed with experience, but I'm aggressively always trying to learn more.

Experience in more advanced aircraft and worse conditions caused me to minimize flying a single piston at night. As various challenges sharpened my stick and rudder skills, I'm more capable in challenging winds or maneuvering.

Over the last 30 years I've noticed my practices and limits evolving while some peers have stopped learning. A couple because they've learned it all, just ask them, some have scared themselves, but most because of stagnation, honestly. Some of these peers will still launch their singles to Vegas at night but chasten me about "flying close to another airplane."

Like a sailing instructor once told me, "different horses for different courses." Or Harley v. sport bike (I enjoy both). To each his/her own, just be kind about it.

[thinwing]

I watched....maybe a 20 25 degree bank at most....those old Schweizers aileron and rudder effectiveness pretty sloppy...you act immature

[201er]

Just now, thinwing said:

I watched....maybe a 20 25 degree bank at most....those old Schweizers aileron and rudder effectiveness pretty sloppy...you act immature

You are twisting facts to make your invalid point. You act like a politician.

 

Facts: 2:29, 45 degree turn. 2:42 enters a forward slip

[PTK]

17 hours ago, thinwing said:

I watched....maybe a 20 25 degree bank at most....those old Schweizers aileron and rudder effectiveness pretty sloppy...you act immature

It's not an act! He is immature!

According to him you're blind and if you dare disagree with him you are old fashioned, illogical, oblivious, unaware, an accident waiting to happen and pussyfooting pilot with no skills! 

No shortage of adjectives!

This after he posts video of his botched approach overshooting final and eating up about 1300 feet of runway which he calls intentional "energy cutting." We all have botched an approach and overshot final. But I hope had the awareness to go around and setbup again. 

[thinwing]

Yeah ok...we disagree...to my blind eyes his bank was only slightly greater than the angle presented when the glider rests on the ground...as far as the forward slip..again it showed how ineffective these Schweitzer rudders are...maybe 5 degree fuselage pitch...just not that useful drag producer compared to the brakes ("throttle") especially considering the low airspeed involved!...I apologize for calling you immature...I really don't know you but considering how you make snap responses back at people who think your pattern flying is unsafe I realized it's just Your Hubris.

[201er]

7 minutes ago, thinwing said:

I really don't know you but considering how you make snap responses back at people who think your pattern flying is unsafe I realized it's just Your Hubris.

Nobody has explained to me how my pattern flying is unsafe. It's all been character attacks and arguments over gadgets. I still have not heard a clearly articulated answer as to what is wrong with a coordinated, wing-unloaded, constant angle of attack, steep turn to lose altitude on base to final to roll out on glidepath.

[jetdriven]

16 minutes ago, 201er said:

Nobody has explained to me how my pattern flying is unsafe. It's all been character attacks and arguments over gadgets. I still have not heard a clearly articulated answer as to what is wrong with a coordinated, wing-unloaded, constant angle of attack, steep turn to lose altitude on base to final to roll out on glidepath.

And 45 degrees of bank at that.  Up until this thread I didn't realize how many people are horrified at such a maneuver.  Maybe the wing with hit the ground. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, salty said:

After reading this thread I wonder how any of us have survived landing a Mooney. 

Hence I sold mine and bought a nice safe Comanche.

Clarence