Failed PreBuy - and a late introduction

[mccdeuce]

I realized a couple of days ago that I just sort of showed up on here and started talking... guess that fits my personality.

I was hoping to then make my introduction with a "I just bought this Mooney and I am so excited"  but that has not gone to plan. 

Found a perfect M20E that I thought was going to be there perfect fit for me with just the right kinda of avionics upgrades.  Had it brought to my mechanic who found 3 major issues (and a few minor ones)

1) Leaking fuel tanks.  2) The landing biscuits were pretty close to the end of their lives 3) Filiform corrosion - about 4 sq ft of it through out the airplane

With a conversation with Alan Fox - I walked away from the Airplane (and planned on walking over to inspect his, but someone has beat me to it)

 

So without an airplane (kinda) here is my introduction:

Hello all! My name is Mark relatively new member currently living in Norfolk VA.  I am a Navy helicopter pilot here flying H-60s and love it.  Use to own a 2 seat Grumman that I put 140hp up front, decided to sell that a few years ago to be responsible and buy a house.  Have house - being responsible is not as fun as flying.  I am building a Glasair Super 2 - but have some time left before she flies.  So I am actively looking for a good Mooney to enjoy, which brings us back to the M20E and maybe some Mooney formation flying in the future.

[carusoam]

Welcome out into the light Mark.

one of our Members (Dr. Bill) has recently posted his Mooney M20E for sale...

Check the planes for sale area for others...

Best regards,

-a-

[MB65E]

Welcome Mark!!

A hangar neighbor in PHX used to have a Glasair III and a Super 2 tail wheel version. I really liked the super 2.  It flew nicer than the 3.

Thanks for your service, those -60's are amazing. What's the OEI service ceiling if you can share? Just curious, it's probably a non event loosing an engine these days.

We really like our E. There is not much better out there for the price. I wouldn't over look a really nice C. The power and torque on the E is nice, However, a clean C can give the E a solid run.

Good luck, hopefully you and DrBill can shake on something. 

Best,

-Matt

 

[KLRDMD]

15 hours ago, mccdeuce said:

I was hoping to then make my introduction with a "I just bought this Mooney and I am so excited"  but that has not gone to plan. 

1) Leaking fuel tanks.  2) The landing biscuits were pretty close to the end of their lives 3) Filiform corrosion - about 4 sq ft of it through out the airplane

The first two items are simply normal maintenance on any Mooney. The seller will have to address those before he can sell the airplane anyway, either by fixing them or discounting the airplane appropriately. The corrosion, if it is just surface and easily addressed, get a discount equal to what it would take to fix it. If it is major corrosion, that's a different story, of course. Don't let a little deferred maintenance, appropriately addressed financially by the seller, stop you from buying an otherwise great Mooney for you.

[mccdeuce]

Unfortunately DrBills's is a little out of my price range.

 

As for the OEI it merits a little discussion on helicopter ops.  For dual engine ops I have a service ceiling of 13,000ft density altitude. For helicopters DA is the name of the game. Three major factors - High, Hot and Heavy.  Flying straight and level around 70KIAS (more or less bucket airspeed) I can comfortably loose an engine pretty high up and I am going to be just fine. So run on landing just like an airplane and you won't think twice.  Now lets say you are trying to hover - well that takes a bit more power.  Are you in ground effect? On a cold day with a light aircraft here at sea level - I can pretty much hover out of ground effect all day long with a single engine.  Just change winter to summer and you are coming down quick. 

Best example I have is this past March I did a mountain flying course in Fallon, Nevada.  Landed the helicopter on a mountain peak at 10,200ft PA - can't remember the DA.  Now putting that same flight into the summer I am not sure I could have safely landed dual engine. (we use a 10% safety margin for mountain flying)  I will see if I can find the picture. 

[mccdeuce]

Just now, KLRDMD said:

The first two items are simply normal maintenance on any Mooney. The seller will have to address those before he can sell the airplane anyway, either by fixing them or discounting the airplane appropriately. The corrosion, if it is just surface and easily addressed, get a discount equal to what it would take to fix it. If it is major corrosion, that's a different story, of course. Don't let a little deferred maintenance, appropriately addressed financially by the seller, stop you from buying an otherwise great Mooney for you.

I had already gotten the seller down on the price - my estimation for sealing the tanks is $8k, new landing biscuits of $3k and the local shop quoted another $3k to sand the surface corrosion off and then touch up with primer.  The paint job while nice would look kinda splashy after all that sanding clean.  Original asking price was $42k.   Agreed upon $35k.  Truthfully I didn't ask if he would go down to $25k (I thought it poor form) but based on $15-16k just to fix these items I didn't think it was a good idea.  

[KLRDMD]

Just now, mccdeuce said:

I had already gotten the seller down on the price - my estimation for sealing the tanks is $8k, new landing biscuits of $3k and the local shop quoted another $3k to sand the surface corrosion off and then touch up with primer.  The paint job while nice would look kinda splashy after all that sanding clean.  Original asking price was $42k.   Agreed upon $35k.  Truthfully I didn't ask if he would go down to $25k (I thought it poor form) but based on $15-16k just to fix these items I didn't think it was a good idea.  

Maybe the seller agreed to $7k in price reductions due to the deferred maintenance he knew it needed. If you run the airplane you're looking at through Jimmy Garrison's Mooney evaluation tool and AOPA's vRef you should be able to get a feel for what the airplane is really worth. Also look online at Barnstormer's, T-A-P and Controller to get comps. Except for Jimmy's numbers which are closest to real, reduce vRef and the average comp by about 10% to get closer to real life selling prices. Does that come to $42k or $35k ? What's the airplane worth "fixed" ? My recommendation is to get some data on what the airplane is really worth, determine the $$$ required to get it in that shape, then have a conversations with the seller. Too many buyers and sellers don't have open honest communication to tell each other what they're thinking and why. This shouldn't be adversarial, you both want the same thing. See if you can agree to a way to make it happen.

[mccdeuce]

Just now, KLRDMD said:

Too many buyers and sellers don't have open honest communication to tell each other what they're thinking and why. This shouldn't be adversarial, you both want the same thing. 

You are absolutely correct on this.  It does need to be an open conversation but I just don't think it was there.  Was dealing with friend of owner, owner didn't even call me back after I left voicemail telling him about the issues I found. Its definitely hard to value certain items.

This is the airplane for reference:

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1419205/1964-mooney-m20e

[KLRDMD]

Just now, mccdeuce said:

You are absolutely correct on this.  It does need to be an open conversation but I just don't think it was there.  Was dealing with friend of owner, owner didn't even call me back after I left voicemail telling him about the issues I found. Its definitely hard to value certain items. This is the airplane for reference:

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1419205/1964-mooney-m20e

If you don't think that airplane will work for your needs, I can strongly suggest you consider this one:

http://www.klrdmd.com/N5918Q.html

It is also listed for sale on MooneySpace but the above link has more information.

Disclaimer 1: I know the seller very well and have known him for 15 years. He is an A&P/IA that recently completed the RV10 he's building, hence the sale of his Mooney. You may notice the URL is a page on one of my websites. I'm sure Kelly will work with you on the price a bit and I KNOW it is in excellent mechanical condition.

Disclaimer 2: I have no financial affiliation with this airplane, if it sells or doesn't and what price it sells for make no difference to me financially.

[1524J]

59 minutes ago, mccdeuce said:

I had already gotten the seller down on the price - my estimation for sealing the tanks is $8k, new landing biscuits of $3k and the local shop quoted another $3k to sand the surface corrosion off and then touch up with primer.  The paint job while nice would look kinda splashy after all that sanding clean.  Original asking price was $42k.   Agreed upon $35k.  Truthfully I didn't ask if he would go down to $25k (I thought it poor form) but based on $15-16k just to fix these items I didn't think it was a good idea.  

Tank sealing estimate is in line. $3000 for the landing biscuits is almost double what it should cost. I'd guess $1700 tops if you have a shop do the work. If an A&P is willing to work with you the cost would be around $1200 or less. Corrosion and paint is too subjective. 

[carusoam]

PP thoughts on corrosion... Not a mechanic...

Corrosion is important to get measured precisely by somebody with the proper tools and experience.  The maintenance manual, I believe, has the guidance.  

- Filiform is a surface corrosion, clean and paint properly.  Often found on sheet metal spreading under the paint.

- inter granular corrosion can go deeper, very quickly.  Quickly is measured in months, If you see it at annual, take care of it now sort of thing.  Often found on spars going through the cabin.  They get scratched and have things spilled on them...

Best regards,

-a-

[FloridaMan]

I think $3000 is a bit steep on the biscuits. IIRC, it was somewhere between $1400 and $1800 for mine at a reputable MSC. It was discovered at annual that mine were 20 years old and overdue for replacement. I didn't notice anything wrong with the way the plane performed on landing. Filiform corrosion is very common and easily addressed. Where you want to look for corrosion especially is under the rear seat. There's a thread here that explains it. Unfortunately the mechanic who performed his prepurchase inspection didn't know to pull the back seat and look at the spar underneath the inspection panels: 

 As for repairing tanks, Don Maxwell has some information on his site regarding this as well stating that a full reseal may not be necessary: http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/_overlay/Fuel Tank Repair_How We Fix Them 2-05.htm

[mccdeuce]

Thanks for the info. I was estimating the landing biscuits based on 15 of them at $100 a pop. Maybe I did something wrong. 

I guess the plan/point I need to decide is how much work I'm willing to accept. Because I am building the Glasair I really didn't want a project airplane.  Looking for something more turnkey.  The question I have to answer is does that drive me to a J. 

Need to figure some things out. 

[KLRDMD]

12 minutes ago, mccdeuce said:

Because I am building the Glasair I really didn't want a project airplane.  Looking for something more turnkey.

Buy Kelly's E and be done with it then.

[Hank]

30 minutes ago, mccdeuce said:

Thanks for the info. I was estimating the landing biscuits based on 15 of them at $100 a pop. Maybe I did something wrong. 

There are eleven biscuits (4 on each main, 3 on the nose). Early planes had more,that was changed before my 1970 model was built. Some are still out there, needing new gear parts for the new biscuits. Buyer beware . . . 

Last I saw, they were $105 each plus install.

[mccdeuce]

Just now, Hank said:

There are eleven biscuits (4 on each main, 3 on the nose). Early planes had more,that was changed before my 1970 model was built. Some are still out there, needing new gear parts for the new biscuits. Buyer beware . . . 

Last I saw, they were $105 each plus install.

There's definitely currently more than 11. Does that mean that the fork needs to be upgraded as well?

 

27 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

...there is nothing that will slow down a home built project as effectively as having an airworthy plane at your disposal...

For the most part you are correct. My better half and I are currently split by 3.5 hours of driving (or 45 min of flying) being able to go get her would increase time spent at home building and overall make me happier. But I am aware that it will elongate my time to completion of the Glasair. 

[Patto]

I think that you would actually be getting an okay deal if you got it for $35k and had to do that amount of work to get it to the turn-key status you are seeking.  I bought mine for $35k (74 C) and it has less in the way of avionics, a little less time SMOH, and one tank that leaks when completely full.  Some other minor issues to repair as well.  I still think I got an okay deal.  I would encourage you to try calling the seller again and having an open conversation.  Maybe he/she took offense to the voicemail and you can square it away and get a little more knocked off the price?

[FloridaMan]

Actually, looking that plane it looks like it's a little high on the price to begin with. You should be able to get a decent E/F with a mid-time engine, 6-pack on the panel and a 430 (probably non-WAAS) for around $40k. Unless you're just planning on tooling around VFR, the expenses on that Mooney that you're looking at would quickly exceed the price difference with something a bit more equipped. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, mccdeuce said:

There's definitely currently more than 11. Does that mean that the fork needs to be upgraded as well?

 

For the most part you are correct. My better half and I are currently split by 3.5 hours of driving (or 45 min of flying) being able to go get her would increase time spent at home building and overall make me happier. But I am aware that it will elongate my time to completion of the Glasair. 

If there are 10 main & 4 noseshock discs they are really old, Noah brought the last ones on the Arc.  To convert you will need parts from Lasar.

Clarence