Looking at an M20F

[chrixxer]

I'm a relatively new pilot (PPL in October 2015, about 200 hours total time, 105 hours PIC, ~25 in complex, ~50 in high performance (Cirrus)). I'm looking for my first plane, which I intend to have for a while. Everything I've read / heard about Mooneys, leads me here. (Currently, I'm renting a G430W-equipped '71 Arrow with daily minimums (2 weekdays, 3 weekends/holidays), wet, $189/hr.)

Had the owner of the flight school I trained / am training (working on IR now) at refer me to a guy a few hangars down with several project planes, one of which is a 1960s (FAA says 1967, owner says 1969) M20F. A CFI/plane owner friend of mine and I flew out to see it today, and gave the logbooks a once-over: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vagcou8yybo3216/AAASwjMCr-zVj2di5Fxui8F9a?dl=0

It has the "standard six-pack" panel layout with two avionics stacks, including a KMA-24 audio panel, an old ADF receiver, a MAC-1700 COM/NAV unit (with I think a KI-206 VOR/LOC/GS), a KY-197 COM unit, an ancient Apollo GPS unit, a KT76A transponder, and a KNS-80 RNAV (tied to what I think is a KI 208 or equivalent VOR/LOC indicator). 

Essential stats and known "potential issues" / squawks:

• TTAF 5700 hours
• Lycoming IO-360 engine with <800 hours on it
• 3-blade prop with <1000 hours on it, installed in 1996
• Current annual
• Has only flown about 100 hours in the past 16 years. Stored the last 3 years in an immaculate hangar in a dry (desert) part of SoCal. The owner didn't realize it's not legally airworthy (expired registration), and has been flying it a few hours a year just to keep the moving parts moving.
• Registration expired in 2013 and tail number is forfeit, will have to be repainted, but paint is a 5/10 anyway with some touch-up needed on the wing leading edges immediately (bare metal)
• The positive control system can't be deactivated (button doesn't work), so it's "always on" and the controls are correspondingly stiff.
• Manual landing gear, hydraulic flaps. The step retracts.
• New interior (gorgeous, essentially unused).
• Fuel tanks don't leak, but I don't know if bladders were installed or if they were re-lined or what.
• Engine was replaced in 1971 with 245 hours on the airframe; prop strike.

On the recommendation of the flight school owner, I'd probably take it to Denise Trevino (sp?) at Inland Valley Aviation over at Chino Airport, for a once-over...?I also know I'm looking at ADS-B compliance in a few years, etc.

I'm planning on putting - eventually, and depending on things like STCs - at least a 430W in, hopefully someday soon a G3X PFD or at least a (now STC'd for the Mooney) Garmin G5 digital AI replacement, a decent COM/NAV unit, and probably a GTX345 transponder for ADS-B Out compliance, so I know I have another $20K to put into the panel alone.) I like the economy of the IO-360 / Mooney combo (good cruise performance at a wallet-friendly gph rate), the simpler maintenance of the manual landing gear, etc. Basically, I intend to fly this plane as-is for a while ("light" IFR consisting mostly of punching through marine layer during June Gloom - I live on the coast), but will need an LPV-capable GPS eventually.

Am I nuts for considering this in progress (but complete, and flyable, once registered) "project" plane?

Given the above, what would a reasonable asking price for this plane be? Thanks in advance!!

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Chrixxer.

You certainly have found an interesting owner.

People have bought planes that have languished before.  The results are incredibly variable.

A method of finding out the health of the plane is called a PPI, or pre-purchase inspection.

Some PPIs are more expensive than others. Some are performed by mechanics that are familiar with Mooneys.

Doing a once over doesn't sound like a complete PPI.  Go with something more like a twice over to protect your wallet best.

The oddity is there is no standards for PPIs.  What you include is up to you.  The FAA is more interested in protecting your life, less interested in protecting your wallet.

Expect planes that sat without flying are going to have some challenges.  It is better to find them before owning the plane.

Note: Look under the horizontal stabilizer when you see the plane.  That is usually where they attach it's toe tag.  Model, serial number, year it was allegedly built...  Make sure the logs match that data plate.

use the search function to get up to speed on how to do a PPI including the best way to see engine internal parts...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

I'm a relatively new pilot (PPL in October 2015, about 200 hours total time, 105 hours PIC, ~25 in complex, ~50 in high performance (Cirrus)). I'm looking for my first plane, which I intend to have for a while. Everything I've read / heard about Mooneys, leads me here. (Currently, I'm renting a G430W-equipped '71 Arrow with daily minimums (2 weekdays, 3 weekends/holidays), wet, $189/hr.)

Had the owner of the flight school I trained / am training (working on IR now) at refer me to a guy a few hangars down with several project planes, one of which is a 1960s (FAA says 1967, owner says 1969) M20F. A CFI/plane owner friend of mine and I flew out to see it today, and gave the logbooks a once-over: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vagcou8yybo3216/AAASwjMCr-zVj2di5Fxui8F9a?dl=0

It has the "standard six-pack" panel layout with two avionics stacks, including a KMA-24 audio panel, an old ADF receiver, a MAC-1700 COM/NAV unit (with I think a KI-206 VOR/LOC/GS), a KY-197 COM unit, an ancient Apollo GPS unit, a KT76A transponder, and a KNS-80 RNAV (tied to what I think is a KI 208 or equivalent VOR/LOC indicator). 

Essential stats and known "potential issues" / squawks:

• TTAF 5700 hours
• Lycoming IO-360 engine with
• 3-blade prop with
• Current annual
• Has only flown about 100 hours in the past 16 years. Stored the last 3 years in an immaculate hangar in a dry (desert) part of SoCal. The owner didn't realize it's not legally airworthy (expired registration), and has been flying it a few hours a year just to keep the moving parts moving.
• Registration expired in 2013 and tail number is forfeit, will have to be repainted, but paint is a 5/10 anyway with some touch-up needed on the wing leading edges immediately (bare metal)
• The positive control system can't be deactivated (button doesn't work), so it's "always on" and the controls are correspondingly stiff.
• Manual landing gear, hydraulic flaps. The step retracts.
• New interior (gorgeous, essentially unused).
• Fuel tanks don't leak, but I don't know if bladders were installed or if they were re-lined or what.
• Engine was replaced in 1971 with 245 hours on the airframe; prop strike.

On the recommendation of the flight school owner, I'd probably take it to Denise Trevino (sp?) at Inland Valley Aviation over at Chino Airport, for a once-over...?I also know I'm looking at ADS-B compliance in a few years, etc.

I'm planning on putting - eventually, and depending on things like STCs - at least a 430W in, hopefully someday soon a G3X PFD or at least a (now STC'd for the Mooney) Garmin G5 digital AI replacement, a decent COM/NAV unit, and probably a GTX345 transponder for ADS-B Out compliance, so I know I have another $20K to put into the panel alone.) I like the economy of the IO-360 / Mooney combo (good cruise performance at a wallet-friendly gph rate), the simpler maintenance of the manual landing gear, etc. Basically, I intend to fly this plane as-is for a while ("light" IFR consisting mostly of punching through marine layer during June Gloom - I live on the coast), but will need an LPV-capable GPS eventually.

Am I nuts for considering this in progress (but complete, and flyable, once registered) "project" plane?

Given the above, what would a reasonable asking price for this plane be? Thanks in advance!!

 

I would run the VRef on it and see what it comes up with. You don't mention how many hours on the engine. If the engine was replaced in 1971 and the airframe has 5700 hours, how many hours are actually on the engine?

Also, there are a lot of unanswered questions about the other components (like the donuts, the tanks, etc.).

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Yetti]

In annual but registration expired.  What else was missed during the inspection?  There are some good points about an older engine rebuild, in the 90s  there was a problem with metallurgy.   There could be ADs with the crank and oil pump.  

[glafaille]

Is the plane full of fuel now?  Hard to tell if it leaks unless it's full.

The elephant is the room is the engine and prop.  Although many folks don't pay much attention to manufacturers recomendations, Lycoming suggests 12 years between overhauls and the propeller is probably the same.  Be careful if it's been decades since overhaul.

The next big thing is corrosion in the wing and forward fuselage structure.  I think SB 208 is the one to research.

Are the logs complete.  Pay to have an IA examine the logs before you spend any money on a prebuy.  He should pay particular attention to AD/SB compliance, corrosion repairs, any replacement to belly skins or replacement of bottom antennas.  Be sure all 337s and STCs are present.

Have a Mooney savy mechanic or pilot do a quick "once over" examination before springing for a prebuy inspection.  

[DaV8or]

I totally missed it. How much are they asking? Besides your post, I saw just some pictures.

[Yetti]

You can do an AD search on the FAA web site.   It had a couple of differences between that one and the program the IA used.  Will take a couple hours of your time that you can then go over with the PPI person.

[carusoam]

From the photos...

The instrument panel seems to be updated.  Make sure the updates are all documented...

the prop's leading edge has been worked on and not repainted.

-a-

[chrixxer]

57 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I would run the VRef on it and see what it comes up with. You don't mention how many hours on the engine. If the engine was replaced in 1971 and the airframe has 5700 hours, how many hours are actually on the engine?

Also, there are a lot of unanswered questions about the other components (like the donuts, the tanks, etc.).

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

About 800 hours on the engine, about 900 on the prop (installed with about 200 already on it). Tanks were full and not leaking.

 

[chrixxer]

34 minutes ago, DaV8or said:

I totally missed it. How much are they asking? Besides your post, I saw just some pictures.

 

They're asking about $45K, I've heard it should (?) go for about $35K assuming engine inspection is solid...?

[carusoam]

Proceed cautiously.  Keep both eyes open. Don't let yourself get surprised...

As far as price goes...compare to similar planes that are for sale.  A decent radio installation can add 10AMU. Paint, another 10 AMU, prop, sealed tanks....

Are you able to speak with the owner about the plane?

A new challenge is planes are selling more this year than any time in the last decade.  See the number of new owners discussing their experiences around here.

This comes from used machinery experience, not specific to Mooney airplanes....

Best regards,

-a-

[chrixxer]

4 minutes ago, carusoam said:

As far as price goes...compare to similar planes that are for sale.  A decent radio installation can add 10AMU. Paint, another 10 AMU, prop, sealed tanks....

Are you able to speak with the owner about the plane?

It's hard to find comparisons; the Fs I've seen are either shotgun panel models with trashed interiors, or nicely redone and in the $55K+ range. This one compares favorably to the used Arrows I've been seeing, with a simpler landing gear setup and better cruise performance / fuel flow / range... 

 

Current owner bought it as a project, doesn't know more than what I listed above (got that from him this morning).

 

[Raptor05121]

Mirroring others thoughts- proceed carefully, but be prepared to spend money. The panel is outdated, but you can fly fine if the radios and all work. But if you plan on ADS-B out, GNS430, Garmin G5, etc, you're expecting $10k+

The 3-blade prop kills the hub AD, and its a good prop. Obvious signs of high-time and/or off-field use. 5000hrs total time isn't bad. 

I wouldn't be scared of it, but spend plenty of time combing it over. I traveled to see my current plane 5 times before I made an offer, and when I did, we haggled for a week. Even then, I got a few suprises

[carusoam]

See if you can find some of the older MAPA magazines that had comparison prices printed in them.  They were supported by a sales company called All American Aircraft or AAA...

A base line C would sell for 30.

Adding the fuel injected motor, it would sell for 40. E

Stretching the fuselage, would sell for 40. G

Doing both would sell for 50. F

Making it modern would sell for 2X more. J

Updating the instrument panel would have the Js go over 100.

The more capable K would exceed that.

Then the Long Bodies came along...

They all fly fast and efficiently.

Best regards,

-a-

[Pritch]

The Plane use to belong to a Earl Jensen in Glendive MT. and is a 67 according to Aviongoo.  You might want to do a google search on him and give him a call.  The registration expired 3 yrs ago and has been canceled so that will give lots of haggle room, and be very careful.  Call the FAA in Oklahoma City and inquire further. 

 

Pritch.

[Guest]

It has potential, but may also some expensive items.  Do some shopping for avionics pricing, $10K is just a warm up lap and won't buy you much.  You could end up spending as much on an old bird as buying something newer.

Along with the other items, the two year pitot static check and old unsupported transponder are likely overdue.

You could replace the GPS with an Apollo GX55 as a stop gap, but it's not WAAS and also support is getting tough.

Clarence

[Yetti]

The KNS-80 RNAV makes it approach capable.  You could pull the other things put a KX 155 for $2K Then a Freeflight ADSB out for $2K and just fly it. Build a Stratux for $100.00  No need to get crazy.  Get the PC system working for about a $1K  and be done.

 

[glafaille]

I may have missed it but Is the seller an A&P or better yet an AI?  If this plane is a "project" plane how do you know all of the work and materials used are up to standards?  Is EVERYTHING documented in the logbook and supported by yellow tags or 8130s?  I have seen common Home Depot hardware used on owner maintained aircraft and worse on owner performed refurbs.

Be very careful.  This plane will need a VERY complete and probably expensive pre-buy inspection, ideally an annual by a Mooney Service Center.

[kortopates]

Am I understanding the engine and prop haven't been been overhauled since 1970; thus 46 years old? If so I'd price it as a run out engine and prop. I personally wouldn't even fly it if the hoses are still that old till they are replaced. I'd doubt the engine would last more than a year due to corrosion if it's truly that old with so much time sitting. But hope iam wrong but you'll find lots of stories here of people that suffered that fate.

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[M20F-1968]

I felt the need to chime in. 

I rebuilt a 1968 F model that had sat in a hangar in Dallas for 26 years.  It had been taken apart (engine, gear, panel, interior) and then put back together only to have it in one piece.  No damage Hx. 1975 hours when purchased.  The engine was field overhauled to new specs in 1982, I did an IRAN with Penn Yan Aero.  The engine has 200 hours to date, filters have been clean and no problems as of yet.  I put a new Hartzell prop on it when the eddy current AD came out.  You can see pictures of it now on my web site.  Others have commented that the only way you can tell it is an F is by seeing that it has a Johnson Bar.  It was recently professionally appraised at $206,000.00. 

As you can see, you can rebuild anything.  Take all the numbers you would expect to pay for something and multiply by 2 or 3 (unless you are doing the work yourself and are confident you can do it correctly and legally). 

John Breda

[M20F-1968]

Sorry, I did not mean to say web site, I meant to say my profile on Mooneyspace.

John Breda

[Yetti]

Yellow tags mean nothing.  And if everything has been on the plane since it was built, it would be in the equipment list. $1100.00 for a set of hoses

Edited August 13, 2016 by Yetti

[DaV8or]

12 hours ago, Pritch said:

The Plane use to belong to a Earl Jensen in Glendive MT. and is a 67 according to Aviongoo.  You might want to do a google search on him and give him a call.  The registration expired 3 yrs ago and has been canceled so that will give lots of haggle room, and be very careful.  Call the FAA in Oklahoma City and inquire further. 

 

Pritch.

It is a '67 or '68. Manual gear was dropped in '68. There are no '69s with manual gear. The serial number will tell you exactly what year it is. Also note that model year and calendar year often are not the same. A '67 F very well may have been built in 1966.

Edited August 13, 2016 by DaV8or

[Guest]

From the specs posted the prop is 1996 and the engine has to be newer as it has less time than the prop.

Clarence

• Lycoming IO-360 engine with <800 hours on it
• 3-blade prop with <1000 hours on it, installed in 1996

[jetdriven]

Airplanes that need paint, interior, radios, and an engine don't bring much money.  That's 40-60k pretty easily. If I was getting anywhere near the 60k range (all in) I'd look at a much nicer F or a J, or even a Bonanza.