Newbie intro and CFII query

[BSrigley]

Greetings All,

Ben Srigley here. I am a new, low-time private pilot who just purchased a 1/6th interest in a 1977 M20J located at KGAI. The more I learn about these amazing airplanes, the better I feel about my purchase. Such an upgrade from the 172S I have been flying! Looking forward to continuing my IFR training and future trips with my wife.

I am sure most everyone here has been through this: The insurance company requires 10hrs. dual flight before I can solo, and I am having a difficult time finding a CFI or CFII nearby with significant Mooney time. Any ideas? Any qualified takers from this site? I would be happy to cover expenses if someone wants to fly into KGAI for a long weekend of training (1-2 hours flight to KGAI, hotel, etc.) 

 

Thank you,

Ben

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Ben.

The type of training you are asking for is labeled 'transition training'.  It is best delivered by a Mooney specific instructor.

You have come to the right place.  Stand by for additional input from pilots in your neighborhood.

Are you familiar with MAPA and NJMooney pilots?

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

I would be very surprised if you cannot find a Mooney-familiar instructor in the DC area. Who has been doing instruction for the others in your group? Is the insurer specifying a particular level of Mooney-specific experience. 

Have you tried the Mooney Safety Foundation? They can probably match you up with someone.

[Jerry 5TJ]

To name just one, George Perry at KFDK is close to you, and he's active on this site.

He has lots of Mooney time and currently has, I think, an "S" model.

[cnoe]

Hi Ben, FYI from the looks of your avatar you're a small guy (though I can't say the same for your head). 

If you need them, rudder pedal extensions are available for the plane allowing you to keep the seat adjusted to a comfortable position.

Welcome aboard!

[BSrigley]

Thank you for the fast replies!

I've sent emails to George Perry, MAPA and the Mooney Safety Foundation. 

I do have a pretty big head, cnoe. Avatar is to exact scale. Makes me genetically predisposed to be a pilot, right?  

[Danb]

Ben welcome, you buddies with George Lopez. Mapa's a great place. if your willing to go to Va. More there also, like diamondan

[Deb]

Mike Elliott is a Master CFII and while based in the Clearwater FL, area, does travel to teach. He also posts on this site as mike_elliott. His email is: mike@aviating.com.

[Seth]

Hi Ben-

 

Welcome to to Mooney Ownership and to GAI.  N201RF, right?  I'm based at GAI and put together a monthly breakfast flight mainly for the Mooney Pilots on the field and in the region.  I'll get you on the list.  PM me your email and phone number.

I also have some instructor recommendations for you.  There is an MSC - Mooney Service Center nearby at W00 and they have a few very experienced Mooney Instructors - it's a 2400 foot field and where I learned to fly Mooney's so I leaned about airspeed control in the pattern on day one.

I look forward to meeting you soon.

Take care,

-Seth

[BSrigley]

Hi Seth,

Yes, N201RF. I'd love to join you for the monthly breakfast flight! PM sent.  

I actually spoke with Chris @ Freeway Airport yesterday. He was going to get back to me with an instructor recommendation.  

Look forward to meeting you too.

 

Best,

Ben

[1524J]

On March 16, 2016 at 8:09 AM, BSrigley said:

Greetings All,

Ben Srigley here. I am a new, low-time private pilot who just purchased a 1/6th interest in a 1977 M20J located at KGAI. The more I learn about these amazing airplanes, the better I feel about my purchase. Such an upgrade from the 172S I have been flying! Looking forward to continuing my IFR training and future trips with my wife.

I am sure most everyone here has been through this: The insurance company requires 10hrs. dual flight before I can solo, and I am having a difficult time finding a CFI or CFII nearby with significant Mooney time. Any ideas? Any qualified takers from this site? I would be happy to cover expenses if someone wants to fly into KGAI for a long weekend of training (1-2 hours flight to KGAI, hotel, etc.) 

 

Thank you,

Ben

10 hours duel before you can solo seems high too me. On the flip side, my son has about 80 hours since getting his license (none In a Mooney) and the insurance company only required he be signed off by a CFI with no time stipulated. I'm the one that stepped in and said it needed to be around five hours. This was only a couple of months ago. I'm about to renew my insurance and the new quote only required he have two hours duel before solo and 2 hours solo before carrying passengers. 

[Seth]

38 minutes ago, BSrigley said:

Hi Seth,

Yes, N201RF. I'd love to join you for the monthly breakfast flight! PM sent.  

I actually spoke with Chris @ Freeway Airport yesterday. He was going to get back to me with an instructor recommendation.  

Look forward to meeting you too.

 

Best,

Ben

Chris is a good guy - all the guys over there (and ladies) are pretty good.  I think your plane is maintained there and by the other owners.  Correct?

-Seth

[Seth]

Just now, 1524J said:

10 hours duel before you can solo seems high too me. On the flip side, my son has about 80 hours since getting his license (none In a Mooney) and the insurance company only required he be signed off by a CFI with no time stipulated. I'm the one that stepped in and said it needed to be around five hours. This was only a couple of months ago. I'm about to renew my insurance and the new quote only required he have two hours duel before solo and 2 hours solo before carrying passengers. 

All depends on the insurance company.

When I moved into M20F ownership years ago it was 10 dual, 10 solo, with about 120 hours in my logbook and only a handful of that retract.  No instrument rating at the time.  When I transitioned into my Missile 500 hours later with an instrument rating, it was simply a sign off by an instructor after transition training.

-Seth

[Hank]

When I bought my C in '07, with a still-damp PPL, zero endorsements and only 172 time, it was 15 hours dual with an approved instructor [including 5 real/simulated IMC], or 15 dual plus 10 solo if I used a different CFI. I went the quick route. My dual included getting the complex endorsement, but was mostly learning to fly higher and manage descents and how to slow down approaching an airport. Cessnas slow down like loaded dump trucks, and will bleed off airspeed in a descent--not so a Mooney. But what mattered to me was quality instruction and learning the right things. That's why I've since gone to two MAPA PPPs and our own Mooney Summit.

[1524J]

12 minutes ago, Seth said:

All depends on the insurance company.

When I moved into M20F ownership years ago it was 10 dual, 10 solo, with about 120 hours in my logbook and only a handful of that retract.  No instrument rating at the time.  When I transitioned into my Missile 500 hours later with an instrument rating, it was simply a sign off by an instructor after transition training.

-Seth

 That was kinda the reason for my post. Thought Ben might need a little perspective on different insurance requirements. The new quote was through Falcon insurance (MAPA partner) Starr Aviation as the underwriter. Rates were very reasonable for a low time pilot. At least I thought so.

[carusoam]

10 hrs with a CFI seems to be the standard for most pilots moving into Mooneys.

The initial training experience is to cover everything in the POH.  

A few things that are different that will stand out while flying around the pattern...

- take off performance while fully loaded on a summer day. Calculate T/O distance and then measure it yourself...

- Go around procedures from a full flap landing.

- Engine out glide ratio adjustments using gear, flaps, prop and speed brakes

Often, the new experience gained is on long X-countries.  10 hours of how to avoid clouds (if VFR) and ice (if not FIKI) and thunderstorms (if not super human and born with personal wings)

Most of this stuff can be learned in the class room in a lot less than two hours.  Unfortunately, the short term memory can get lost in the transition to long term memory while you sleep.  

The solution to the memory challenge is to do the important stuff multiple times over multiple days, demonstrating that the memories really did stick with you through the nights....

The really cool part about this transition training that the insurance company mandates, is they only count the hours, not so much the content.  Pick the content that makes sense to you, try to get to your next level. IFR?  Get some time under the hood...

As a new owner, I got 10 and 10, dual/solo.  More than a month went by from buying the plane to flying it then another month before taking passengers.

Take special precautions as a new Mooney owner.  It is important to be discreet when bailing out of family time because you have to go flying.  It's not your fault.  The insurance company is making you do it.  Part of the training is how to control the gigantic smile that comes with the new wings. 

Time flies...

Best regards,

-a-

[Raptor05121]

Off topic, but I was chatting with some Cessna guys and I told them: "my most favorite thing about Mooney's is the camradierie between the pilots." I don't think Brand C or Brand P owners get it because there are so many of them. We are just one tight-knit, friendly community with a common likeness and goal.

This thread is a great example. OP, congrats on your purchase and welcome to the club! Post some pictures!

[mike_elliott]

Most of the new Mooney owners I work with have a 10 hr requirement if they have less than 200 hrs retract time. On the higher end, most just require my signoff, (which is a bit more complicated than fogging a mirror in the left seat for 10 hrs :), I have to answer the question "will I let my wife Alice fly with him/her" before I will sign you off.)

Ben, if you need me, feel free to contact me. I am in Dallas now and will be working with a new Acclaim owner for the next few days, but will respond if needed.

 

[1524J]

Ben, just a little advice now that your a new Mooney owner. Although I think 10 hours dual is excessive before you can solo, any time spent behind the yoke with a good instructor in the right seat is money well spent. It's nice to have a Mooney experienced CFI, especially at first, but I wouldn't discount other CFI's if they have little to no time in a Mooney. My current CFI is an ATP pilot with over 18,000 hours and he's been flying all his life from crop dusters to everything in between. He had no Mooney time when we went flying our first time. I was embarrassed when the insurance company required he fly with me for an hour before allowing him to work with my son. He's a really good CFI and i'm lucky he's close to my home base. Anyhow, to get to my point. I've got about 500 hours in a Mooney and just recently realized I had become complacent in my training. For me now, practicing engine failures (takeoff or in the pattern) a couple of times every two years isn't enough. Practicing unusually attitudes or slips to land need to be done often so it becomes reactionary, not something we have to "think" about. When I take off in the Mooney (I've got the Johnson bar) I always pull my gear up quickly. My new CFI likes Vx and doesn't pull the gear until 500' AGL. He wanted to fly left seat before he took the plane on a trip so we were practicing different approaches and takeoffs. One time we had taken off and he reached up to grab the gear, the yoke came back, stall warning horn came on, and I immediately pushed on the yoke without thinking. He took it in stride and I apologized but the reaction was  correct. When he forced me to practice power off abeam the numbers (multiple time and something i hadn't done in years) it was uncomfortable....pucker factor was high.....but I really needed the practice and I'm still uncomfortable which lets me know I need more practice. Don't be satisfied when your insurance company says "your good to go". Force yourself to get in the plane everyone in a while and practice. I'm not sure if I'm talking to you in the last sentence or trying to remind myself.

[BSrigley]

Wow, this is such a great forum! Thank you All for the quick responses and excellent advice.

Great news: I heard from George Perry today and he has agreed to help me with the transition training.

 

-Ben

 

[mike_elliott]

George is a great guy and will give you excellent instruction. He has presented at the Mooney Summit and knows how to teach.

[Yetti]

Interestingly mine was 5 hours instructor, 5 hours solo. about 130 total time no complex, no retract. time  Flew the plane back with instructor (Mooney Owner)  Worked on the plane with Instructor (A&P also)  He did a couple laps around the pattern him left seat then me left seat.  (got to feel the fun of a Mooney) pulled the prop for an overhaul.  Replaced the prop.    Then did 5 landing with him, some airwork.  Quick run through of the PTS.   2 solo laps around the pattern.   I looked him in the eye and asked him "Am I safe?"  He said "Yes work on being airline smooth and land on the centerline"   I had been landing a foot to the right (tiny bit of left crosswind) to which he would respond "70V now arriving on one six right" and I would shoot him a glance and grumble

They really are marvelous birds and the speed makes it not puttering around the sky like with a C172

[Jerry 5TJ]

I'll take the minority view and opine that 10 hours is barely enough to transition to basic VFR operations when stepping up to an unfamiliar, faster, more complex aircraft. 

It has taken me a lot more than that as I transition to my M20R to get comfortable -- and I have 1200 hours in Mooneys.

Heck, it took 10 hours to get familiar with just the GTN750 basics.  

 

 

[Mooneymite]

Hire an experienced CFI for your transition.  He will know almost instantaneously if you need more than the insurance required hours.  As I posted elsewhere, the military trains pilots to fly far more complex/expensive aircraft very quickly....quality training makes a huge difference.  You might think that a CFI with a great reputation is expensive, but he will probably save you money in the final analysis.

Also be aware that "insurance required training" is highly negotiable.  It is not written anywhere but the underwriter's head.