What's with the turbo prop ego's

[gsengle]

Blocking the frequency with chit chat is also sometimes contrary to safety. What's important here is that no one has offered any evidence that the pilot in the pc12 was in any way unsafe, broke any rules, or was intentionally rude (as plausible alternate motivations were put forward). Flying isn't about hurt feelings, it's about all of us being professional and cooperating and following the rules. As I said, who knows, maybe they were being jerks, but courtesy also demands that we give others the benefit of the doubt, IMHO. Yes there are jerks out there, but I just don't see it here with any certainty, and they didn't break rules.

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[Andy95W]

Blocking the frequency with chit chat is also sometimes contrary to safety. What's important here is that no one has offered any evidence that the pilot in the pc12 was in any way unsafe, broke any rules, or was intentionally rude (as plausible alternate motivations were put forward). Flying isn't about hurt feelings, it's about all of us being professional and cooperating and following the rules. As I said, who knows, maybe they were being jerks, but courtesy also demands that we give others the benefit of the doubt, IMHO. Yes there are jerks out there, but I just don't see it here with any certainty, and they didn't break rules.

I really do agree 100% with your statement.

My only point is that we wouldn't be discussing this on a thread about turbo prop egos if they had been more courteous, and that conversing briefly with another pilot on UNICOM is a better use of the frequency than just making a declaration and blasting off without really knowing what the other pilot is intending- or if he is even on the same frequency.

[PTK]

Erik, where did you do your runup, on the ramp or at 24? 

 

Edited October 17, 2015 by PTK

[Mooneymite]

The AIM isn't regulatory.  I always thought that where safety is concerned, common courtesy should be.

Exactly.  Generally a courteous operation is a safe operation.

I  see both sides.  In a 135 operation, time is money and our pax are paying a great deal of money in exchange for "making time".  More often than not, the GA aircraft that departs ahead of us costs us time and money.  Not every GA aircraft is in any sort of hurry, or under any time pressure at all.  Many are "amaturish" to a frustrating degree.....Mooney pilots excepted, of course.

Taxiing out, often while one of us is on CTAF, the other is getting an IFR release with a void time.  The guy in the Cherokee is oblivious to our situation and glares at us when we scoot past him while he's doing his runup.

This is in no way denying there are jerks in the professional pilot ranks.  But we need to try to see the big picture.

Courtesy and common sense.

 

Edited October 17, 2015 by Mooneymite

[Danb]

Hank. That's harsh towards Mercedes drivers

[mpg]

no post,,,   cause I reread all of it!

Edited October 17, 2015 by mpg

[PTK]

He did not announce departing 24 before they announced departing 6.

He announced taxi to 24. 

Since when does a departing aircraft on the runway have to wait for an aircraft taxing to another runway? Assuming taxing ac is not crossing rw of departing ac?

There's a healthy amount of frivolous blame here and desperatly reaching to crucify the Pilatus pilots. 

I just don't see it.

Edited October 17, 2015 by PTK

[aviatoreb]

 

 

Well I bet a strict reading of the AIM would discourage all that unnecessary chit chat on ctaf. I guess I don't see the big deal. That might have been nice, and I probably would have done just that, it really wasn't necessary. Frankly I'd assume the piston aircraft had a run-up to do which is usually done after taxi to the runway. I have asked 3 times if there wasn't a run up to do... Frankly it would be unusual for a piston aircraft to not need 2 minutes more upon reaching the runway before being ready.

 

 

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gsengle,  I will agree with you that no rules were broke, and that no one got hurt.

This is a thread where we outed turbo prop drivers who were rude.  This was my story.  In my opinion they were rude. The butt in line.  Yes I needed to taxi longer and do a run up, but they needed to turn their engine on and it ended up almost a dead heat.  Yes, a radio call saying they intend to taxi over to the other end of the runway would have been very nice.

You are reaching to say it was because AIM said "unnececessary" chit chat.  Announcing movement on the ground is what is encouraged at untoward fields as it replaces the role of ground control, and ground incidents can be as dangerous as mid air incidents.

Its very lawyer-for-the-defense-ish for you to say its all good because an extra call on the radio from tie down which runway would have cluttered the line?!  First of all - I call that necessary and useful - second - a little context - this is a very rural airport.  Most times I go out and check on my airplane for 30 or 45 minutes, there isn't a single airplane operating. Officially airnav says we are 115 operations per week, but it seems like less.  We are in a large quiet upstate part of the state.  If I fly in a given autumn weekday morning, I might hear one or two airplanes make an announcement during a 45 min flight in my 50 mi box during practice approach.  The airwaves are NOT too cluttered to make a positioning announcement.

I don't know where you were trained and I grant that some training is different from others, but where I was trained (here) it is clearly installed that the purpose of CTAF is so that we can all be aware of that there are other airplanes, where we are, and what are our intentions.  When I get home for example from a flight, I announce 10 mi out, 5 mi out and 3 mi out typically because I am usually announcing into the blind and I want to be sure that the quite I get in response is not that some student pilot missed the announcement and that we will not both surprise each other.

I consider what those two professional pilots did to be bad practice because it would have been clearer to have announced that they are going to the opposite runway than me since otherwise it is normal to assume they would go behind me and being clear to each other is prime.  I consider it rude because it is my guess they did not announce because they were hustling to beat me.  And it is hard to say it was too much effort because keying the mike is so minimal, esp with two pilots, and does not slow down the operation one iota.

[aviatoreb]

He did not announce departing 24 before they announced departing 6.

He announced taxi to 24. 

Since when does a departing aircraft on the runway have to wait for an aircraft taxing to another runway? Assuming taxing ac is not crossing rw of departing ac?

There's a healthy amount of frivolous blame here and desperatly reaching to crucify the Pilatus pilots. 

I just don't see it.

Well - crucify is a strong word.  He was rude is what I am saying.  Just rude.  And as I said, I am holding them out as demonstrating bad practice where the practice is in place to emphasize safety.

AIM says "fit in with the flow" when entering the pattern.  But I can find nothing the same for ground operations, but that is what I am taught.  Keeping silent as to intentions is the main thing

[aviatoreb]

Let me give another scenario (made up).  Suppose you are rolling along at a regular pace up to a green left turn light and a mercedes behind you passes you on the right, gets in front of you, slows down to make the turn, takes the green light which is now yellowing and leaves you with a red light where you wait. Would you call them rude, or no big deal because no law was broken?

[gsengle]

General comment about the state of American culture. There is too much righteous indignation, road rage, and chip on shoulder mentality generally. It's not good for any of us, and that's the vibe I'm getting here. Yes I've seen pilots in every type of airplane do rude stuff. This story doesn't seem very bad at all. That's my opinion. I bet a large percentage of taxi movements especially at small quiet rural airports with only one or two taxiways that don't intersect don't get announced. Yes it would have been nice if they announced their taxi, but you could see them and they knew you could see them. They announced and departed. I still haven't heard if you were ready to go or completed run up but they called first and scooted. They didn't cut anyone off. I'd just prefer we reserve our indignation for things that are a little more than this is all...

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[aviatoreb]

Another thing - several people have suggested that it is more imperative to give way to a jet-A burner because they burn lots of fuel esp at low altitude.  And this gives them right to priority in most situations.

I don't buy that argument one iota.

Generally a jet a burner airplane costs starting at 10 times and up more expensive than my piston avgas burner.  So a pilots is 30 times more expensive.  

And they have hired two professional pilots in this case.  If its a jet, then the costs are way higher still.

That's the capital cost.  

I claim that I don't feel sorry for a multimillionaire in a multimillion dollar airplane flown by two professional pilots in their employ if they ever argue that I should wait for them, or extend my pattern for them, or wait on the ground for them, if their argument is that they are burning so much fuel that it is expensive.  I think the (gallons per hour cost)/(my income) is much greater than theirs - so its a bigger hit on my take home pay to burn gas typically than theirs even at the higher burn rate.  All Im saying is, I don't feel sorry for some bloke stepping off a gulf stream if he is complaining about how much fuel costs and how much fuel he is burning if he were to ever use that as an excuse as to why I should change my operation for cost alone to get him on the ground and shut down quicker.  Generally those people don't make such an argument (never heard it from one of them - strangely just from us mooney avgas sippers here), and the few jet A burners I know in person truly are filthy rich and don't seem to notice how much fuel costs.

[gsengle]

Agreed, but they didn't ask anyone to give way in this case, they didn't cut in line. And let's remember these pilots are probably not well paid and under pressure from likely a charter outfit... They are pilots like us, but without the luxury of pointing the nose where they want to go...

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[aviatoreb]

General comment about the state of American culture. There is too much righteous indignation, road rage, and chip on shoulder mentality generally. It's not good for any of us, and that's the vibe I'm getting here. Yes I've seen pilots in every type of airplane do rude stuff. This story doesn't seem very bad at all. That's my opinion. I bet a large percentage of taxi movements especially at small quiet rural airports with only one or two taxiways that don't intersect don't get announced. Yes it would have been nice if they announced their taxi, but you could see them and they knew you could see them. They announced and departed. I still haven't heard if you were ready to go or completed run up but they called first and scooted. They didn't cut anyone off. I'd just prefer we reserve our indignation for things that are a little more than this is all...

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Quite right - it was not horrible.  It was just rude - not horribly rude - but yes rude - in my opinion - and I have qualified it like that the whole way. You have said you have seen rude behavior.  Does calling this righteous indignation equivalent to declaring that only you have the right to say what is rude and what is not without being considered righteously indignant and everyone else should just suck it up?  Is that I am not agreeing with you that there was one iota of rude in what they did mean that was super? You said, "it would have been nice if they had announced...." Ok we agree to that, and lets leave it there.

Yes I was one hundred percent ready to go and as it turns out they keyed the mike an instant before me.  But that is not something they could have known.

[gsengle]

I wouldn't have given that takeoff a second thought is all... Too many reasons to give the other crew the benefit of the doubt. Live and let live. If they had broken rules, well then I would have felt differently, it's the German side of me...

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[PTK]

Let me give another scenario (made up).  Suppose you are rolling along at a regular pace up to a green left turn light and a mercedes behind you passes you on the right, gets in front of you, slows down to make the turn, takes the green light which is now yellowing and leaves you with a red light where you wait. Would you call them rude, or no big deal because no law was broken?

This is an irrelevant example because it does not apply to what you described.

But if your hypothetical did happen, it really is not a big deal.

It wouldn't bother me at all. I don't know the other driver's situation and why he did what he did. Maybe he is having an emergency of some sort.

And because I don't know, I accept it and just wait for the light to turn green.

It's called giving way. You may be helping someone and they do appreciate it in a very big way.

I wouldn't jump to the extreme conclusion that they're arrogant and rude. Something else maybe going on and if I have to wait for the light to turn green it's the least I could do to help.

The bigger lesson here is that we need to control our e-motions. Emotions emanate from within us and, by definition, we can control them. No one else can. We need to act on logic and not on runaway emotions. Or is that "runway emotions!!"

Edited October 17, 2015 by PTK

[Marauder]

Interesting thread. I practice approaches at a nearby airport that has a couple of LPVs and an ILS. The airport is home to a number of jets and I have run into the opposite runway situation a number of times. It usually on light wind days and the jet guys typically are headed westbound and will depart on runway 29 while everyone else is taking the sub 10 knot easterly winds to mean land on 11. The only time I got irritated was when a Citation decided to take off runway 29 while I am on a 2 mile final for the LPV on 11. I had to call 3 times before they realized I wasn't going to break it off for them (I was doing an IPC) and they waited for me to initiate the missed.

As for ground communications, in our neck of the woods Erik, you will only hear people announce the clearing of the runway because you can't see both ends of the runway at the same time. Because there is sooooo much sharing of frequencies in our area, we normally don't communicate positions on the ground. It is hard enough to get in a call to make airborne position reports.

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[aviatoreb]

The bigger lesson here is that we need to control our e-motions. Emotions emanate from within us and, by definition, we can control them. No one else can. We need to act on logic and not on runaway emotions.

Ok, guys.  Clearly we don't agree and no big deal.  We don't need to agree.  That's ok.

However, let me say this was hardly an emotional event.  It was more like saying, huh, now that was rude. (Don't please try to continue to convince me then that I am wrong that it was not rude - I am reporting what though went through my head and it is a fact that this was what I thought).  I think it is ok to have such thoughts and not necessary to try to train myself to never think anyone is rude.  PTK clearly you have said you have the opposite opinion and that is cool too.  To each our own.

Edited October 17, 2015 by aviatoreb

[PTK]

Was he really rude or were your emotions making it appear worse than it really was?

I don't believe people are rude. Different people interpert things differently based on how well they control their emotions.

[Mooneymite]

I don't believe people are rude.

HARRUMPH!

[gsengle]

I lived in NYC for 20 years, oh yes, there are people that are rude!

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[Marauder]

Ok, guys.  Clearly we don't agree and no big deal.  We don't need to agree.  That's ok.

However, let me say this was hardly an emotional event.  It was more like saying, huh, now that was rude. (Don't please try to continue to convince me then that I am wrong that it was not rude - I am reporting what though went through my head and it is a fact that this was what I thought).  I think it is ok to have such thoughts and not necessary to try to train myself to never think anyone is rude.  PTK clearly you have said you have the opposite opinion and that is cool too.  To each our own.

Erik -- I think what you are seeing is the difference between the definition of "rude" found in upstate New York and the definition found in New Jersey.

When I was living in western NY, my response to Peter Garmin would have been "Peter, please refrain from making those comments"

Living in Delaware my response would be "Peter, dude! Let's keep it civil"

And for the 8 years I lived in New Jersey, the response would be "Peter, just shut the h$ll up!"

Funny story... In the late 80s I was an application engineer in New Jersey teaching people how to use our instrumentation. Every customer was asked to become familiar with the basic operations section of the manual. When I went to do the class, I would be met with some variation of "Hey, we paid good money for you to show us how to use this stuff". So of course, I wasted a couple of hours showing them stuff like the power button.

When I moved back to western NY doing the same job, the first customer I went to was absolutely apologetic about not reading the basic operations section.

Just regional differences. BTW - I still drink pop.

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[aviatoreb]

Was he really rude or were your emotions making it appear worse than it really was?

I don't believe people are rude. Different people interpert things differently based on how well they control their emotions.

Peter, This goes well beyond anything aviation that we are disagreeing.  So lets put the aviation dimension aside.  Turbo props aside.

Yes, I believe there are rude people in the world.  More typically I believe that regular people like you and me, do rude things occasionally and maybe we don't mean it.  I don't think of myself as a rude person, and I try not to be rude, but in any case for whatever reason, if I consider later, it is only a truth that I must own up that yes I was rude.

I believe it is my right to have emotions and to get annoyed if someone is rude, in whatever scenario.  I believe in a world where people are emotional.  Happy, sad, annoyed or whatever.  It is more real for me that way.  If we disagree then it is fine.  I am moving forward with my principle that emotions are part of being human, it is my right and yours to be emotional humans, and it is not necessary to control emotions to such a high degree that we have none.

[gsengle]

Re: regional variations, western MA based here...

ps. Soda.

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[gsengle]

Now that we are debating Buddhism, I would point out that here is a difference between controlling emotions, repressing emotions and choosing how one looks at a situation to experience the situation differently such that different emotions emerge naturally...

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