Bob_Belville Posted May 29, 2015 Report Posted May 29, 2015 I have not been flying nearly enough since last fall so it was great to get to take the Mooney over to 8A0 yesterday. On the return I took a pic of the GTN 750 set on the weather page. The Stormscope is in the pic. As I've written more than once on various threads here, the StormScope is the more important of the two but on an afternoon where buildups were numerous having both made a dicey scene very routine. The selfie is not relevant. DrBill will be jealous that Nancy enjoys flying though I couldn't get her to Kerrville. We were at 9000 (the MSA) so the O2 is a personal choice. Without it my blood oxygen was below 90%.
jlunseth Posted May 29, 2015 Report Posted May 29, 2015 I have Nexrad and a turbocharger instead of a stormscope. On the great majority of trips I am above the clag and able to see and avoid the big CB's. That said, I have noticed that the Nexrad delay can be material. It will show you that the storm tops are there and near your intended course, but usually it is off by several miles, as much as 20, because the cloud has moved since the data was first gathered and then broadcast.
Hank Posted May 29, 2015 Report Posted May 29, 2015 That's where the StormScope comes in--it shows where convection is RIGHT NOW, not 10 or 20 minutes ago. Yes, they are easy to dodge in the clear above the clag, but it's just not possible to always be there. ATC held me at 7000' and vectored me [and many others] around for almost a half hour, until I hit an updraft to almost 9000' and could see scattered blue. They were reluctant to clear me to my filed 10,000 because it would require a deviation around Charlotte. I said "deviate me, then, but please let me climb." So I climbed to 10,000' in the bright blue sky, and accepted a right deviation of less than 10º.
Bob_Belville Posted May 29, 2015 Author Report Posted May 29, 2015 I probably have flown a 2000 hours with Stormscopes in my 2 M20Es. I consider a SS essential equipment for cross country summer flight in my part of the country. A great deal of the pretty colors depicted on NEXRAD is benign rain. I've never had a rough ride that the SS didn't see. YMMV 2
kortopates Posted May 29, 2015 Report Posted May 29, 2015 Agreed Hank and Bob, In fact the turbocharger makes the storm scope even more important IMO since it gets us up higher where they're more a danger. Sure you can see them as your climbing up when the layers have low tops and the cells are isolated, but not when you're climbing to tops that are high and cells are scattered or worse. Knowing right now where they are is key to getting on top safely or within layers where you can avoid visually. Plus its not just the big boomers we want to avoid. Of course the WX-500 stormscope layered on top of the Nexrad weather display on your GPS or MFD provides much improved situational awareness.
chrisk Posted May 29, 2015 Report Posted May 29, 2015 Often times the turbo lets me climb above the mess, but not always. On my last trip I was at 19,000 and in the clag for over an hour. The storm scope was really helpful for finding the active clouds.
FBCK Posted May 29, 2015 Report Posted May 29, 2015 This is a novice question, but when you are in the clag at 19000 feet are you not concerned about getting some ice?
AndyFromCB Posted May 29, 2015 Report Posted May 29, 2015 This is a novice question, but when you are in the clag at 19000 feet are you not concerned about getting some ice? You sure are. The worst icing to be had is always in the spring and summer. I hate the clag up that high. Not much power left to climb higher quickly (and not much indicated for a good zoom climb) and when you're in the soup up that high, going down usually means crappy ride. As I have learnt over last few years, turbo and turbo props come with their own set of challenges. As to stormscope, indispensable in my opinion, even in radar equipped turboprops...
Marauder Posted May 29, 2015 Report Posted May 29, 2015 I have not been flying nearly enough since last fall so it was great to get to take the Mooney over to 8A0 yesterday. On the return I took a pic of the GTN 750 set on the weather page. The Stormscope is in the pic. As I've written more than once on various threads here, the StormScope is the more important of the two but on an afternoon where buildups were numerous having both made a dicey scene very routine. The selfie is not relevant. DrBill will be jealous that Nancy enjoys flying though I couldn't get her to Kerrville. We were at 9000 (the MSA) so the O2 is a personal choice. Without it my blood oxygen was below 90%. What a timely post Bob! I was going to send you a PM over the weekend to ask about this trip. I have purchased a WX-500 and hopefully will be having it installed soon. My experience with StormScopes have been primarily limited to the WX-8 I had installed for years. Worked well for a general indicator of convective activity but without a heading sync and no differentiation between strike and cell mode, I wouldn't trust it to navigate anywhere near where it is showing activity. In other words, I probably gave storms a lot wider berth than I needed to. So, on to my questions. > I think I remember you saying you have a GDL-88. It doesn't appear that the ADS-B is displaying any lightning information. Is that by choice? Curious if the delayed lightning weather at all matches what the StormScope is presenting. > Is your StormScope tied to your heading. If so, does it do an auto refresh or do you need to clear it on heading change or over time? > Do you see many issues with radial spread with the new version StormScopes? I happened to still have the FlightAware notification for you on and saw your flight come up. When I saw your route and the enroute weather, I was watching it carefully. After your arrived there was some really nasty stuff just north of your home airport. Thanks for the PIREP! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
kortopates Posted May 29, 2015 Report Posted May 29, 2015 I don't believe lightning is included in the ADS-B TIS-B product list - there is no mention of it. I have it with my XM subscription but its important to realize its only provides ground strikes. So in addition to the delay, its also a phenomenon of mature cells and thus I find most helpful for the strategic planning a long ways out on longer cross countries. The spherics devices of course show all forms of lightning and thus much more valuable. 1
Bob_Belville Posted May 29, 2015 Author Report Posted May 29, 2015 What a timely post Bob! I was going to send you a PM over the weekend to ask about this trip. I have purchased a WX-500 and hopefully will be having it installed soon. My experience with StormScopes have been primarily limited to the WX-8 I had installed for years. Worked well for a general indicator of convective activity but without a heading sync and no differentiation between strike and cell mode, I wouldn't trust it to navigate anywhere near where it is showing activity. In other words, I probably gave storms a lot wider berth than I needed to. So, on to my questions. > I think I remember you saying you have a GDL-88. It doesn't appear that the ADS-B is displaying any lightning information. Is that by choice? Curious if the delayed lightning weather at all matches what the StormScope is presenting. > Is your StormScope tied to your heading. If so, does it do an auto refresh or do you need to clear it on heading change or over time? > Do you see many issues with radial spread with the new version StormScopes? I happened to still have the FlightAware notification for you on and saw your flight come up. When I saw your route and the enroute weather, I was watching it carefully. After your arrived there was some really nasty stuff just north of your home airport. Thanks for the PIREP! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Chris, I'm sorry to admit I do not know if my GDL-88/GTN750 combo gives me lightening info. I'll check. I think I have everything turned on though there are a couple of features than cannot be displayed at the same time. I have a WX 900. It does not turn the display or auto refresh if the plane changes heading. However in real life I do not think that matters much. If the sky is bristling with strikes I am constantly refreshing. If the rate of strikes is high new dots are displayed ever closer to the center of the screen. Without refreshing a big cell 100 miles away will appear to extend all the way to your present position. At cruise of course heading changes are not much of a factor. If I turn with dots on the screen I refresh. If stuff doesn't appear almost instantly after refresh I know there is no real treat. I routinely have the range set on 100 miles. Only if I have to duck through a narrow opening in a line do I have to zoom in. If I'm bore I might flip range but refreshing tell me more. Getting into MRN was interesting. On the route I was on the MSA is 9000 to about 10 miles from the airport. There were 2 cells within a mile of the runway and I was still at 9000' and 20 miles out. ATC offered 7000 in 2 minutes so I cancelled, threw out the speed brakes, and told Nancy to clear her ears. I went around to the east side of the field around one cell and landed on 21 with the other cell about 1/4 mile away. It started raining before I got the hanger door closed. The passenger who has been flying with me for over 45 years was impressed. (It was not as close as a landing I made years ago in a PA32-R (Lance) at Charleston WV with a thunderstorm on the south end of the field. I landed on dry runway but I was in a heavy downpour before I'd finished rolling out.) 1
jetdriven Posted May 30, 2015 Report Posted May 30, 2015 When you really get into the thick of it the screen fills up in 30 seconds to where its unreadable. Keeping visual is a must then. Seriously. 1
jnisley Posted May 30, 2015 Report Posted May 30, 2015 Today I used ATC, XM, ADS-B, stormscope and turbo and made it home safe and sound but tired, PTL! Angel Flight mission GKJ-CHO-JFZ-GKJ 45 minutes after I landed a thunderstorm parked it self over my home airport. 1
Bob_Belville Posted May 30, 2015 Author Report Posted May 30, 2015 When you really get into the thick of it the screen fills up in 30 seconds to where its unreadable. Keeping visual is a must then. Seriously. image.jpgimage.jpg Yeah, the attenuation is clearly going on here. I would be hitting clear every 15 seconds or so to see where the nearest cells really are. Fun for the feeble minded.
Hank Posted May 30, 2015 Report Posted May 30, 2015 When you really get into the thick of it the screen fills up in 30 seconds to where its unreadable. Keeping visual is a must then. Seriously. image.jpgimage.jpg Boy howdy! With that screen, I'd have gone further north then turned due east and been mostly in the clear, only one cell to dodge near the destination.
AndyFromCB Posted May 30, 2015 Report Posted May 30, 2015 When you really get into the thick of it the screen fills up in 30 seconds to where its unreadable. Keeping visual is a must then. Seriously. image.jpgimage.jpg Cell mode helps. Also, when you screen looks like that, usually a good idea to GTFOUD, Byron ;-) Also, what's the model? Is it heading stabilized? Essentially, I have learnt that only Stormscopes worth anything are WX-500/WX-1000 when connected to a heading source. I like the WX-1000E the most with the flight path display. Or WX-500 on GTN or MX20/GMX200 displays. But yes, eyeballs help the most. This is why I don't think being the clag at FL200 is a good idea in stormy weather. Even FL250 or higher often is no good.
Bob_Belville Posted May 30, 2015 Author Report Posted May 30, 2015 ... I have learnt that only Stormscopes worth anything are WX-500/WX-1000 when connected to a heading source. I like the WX-1000E the most with the flight path display. Or WX-500 on GTN or MX20/GMX200 displays. Andy, not sure where you learned that but as I say above, I don't think heading input is very important in the real world if cells are near by. When I make a turn, and that's not often while in cruise except to skirt weather, I hit clear. in a few seconds I'll be seeing fresh data displayed relative to my new heading. I have hundreds and hundreds of hours with the WX 900. And though I haven't flown with a 500 displayed on my GTN 750 I doubt that would be as useful as having the SS beside the NEXRAD on the 750. Clutter is not a good thing. Yesterday I shifted the 750 to the weather page to remove the terrain from display that is on the map page. Unless there is nearby cells I normally stay on the map page where the weather superimposed.
Danb Posted May 30, 2015 Report Posted May 30, 2015 Andy Iv encountered my worse icing in August on a 95 degree day, it's amazing just how the few minutes of delay on the xm makes when your in the junk, that's where the storms cope allows us to help mitigate some of the trouble, I'm always concerned in the fl's and a long frontal area that the descent to warmer temps. can be quite hard on my wife's ears. Chris I used to have a wx8 and I used it to generally keep me away and not trying to pick my way through the crap. If you want to get up with me prior to your getting the scope installed you can see the differences in my plane between the Adsb, xm and the stormscope, some days it's amazing the difference 10-15 minutes of delay makes. All that being said I'd rather be above the stuff vs. being in nasty turbulence for a few hours, or firstly on the ground questioning myself about canceling the flight which is a good rule to follow .
Piloto Posted May 30, 2015 Report Posted May 30, 2015 When you are in a Mooney facing 20,000ft build up walls it is better to go underneath than through it (terrain permitting). Turbulence is much less. I have a WX-10A with no heading stab and I just clear the dots when changing heading. To get a more accurate distance from the storm I think of the WX10A RANGE selector more as a threshold than actual range. Lightning shown on a particular RANGE can be farther than shown. If no lightning is shown on the next closest range then is on the previous farther range. I found this to correlate very well with XM\WX and visual. Using this technique I can tell from the WX10A if lightning is before or after my destination and avoid unnecessary deviations. José
chrisk Posted May 30, 2015 Report Posted May 30, 2015 This is a novice question, but when you are in the clag at 19000 feet are you not concerned about getting some ice? . Yes! In this case I went from an hour in stable layered clouds, to clear air, to clear air with some clouds that had significant development (requiring a deviation) , to clouds that were thin and stable (more like haze), but with some imbedded clouds with vertical development. When I got to the clouds that had some imbedded vertical development, the chances of picking up serious ice went way up. I could have tried to pick my way through it with the storm scope, but there was a reasonable ceiling, so I went under. The point being the storm scope let me know the weather ahead was not something I wanted to be flying in.
timpercarpio Posted May 30, 2015 Report Posted May 30, 2015 Bob, It looks like your oxygen is plugged into the ceiling. Is that an aftermarket built in system? If so, what manufacturer? We have a portable system, but have to attach it to the back of the passenger seat before we take off if we think we may need it...not convenient!
jetdriven Posted May 30, 2015 Report Posted May 30, 2015 Boy howdy! With that screen, I'd have gone further north then turned due east and been mostly in the clear, only one cell to dodge near the destination.that was the route west. We were at the destination (aex) when I took that screen shot. The wx-1000 was when we were about 15 miles from the destination.
Bob_Belville Posted May 30, 2015 Author Report Posted May 30, 2015 Bob, It looks like your oxygen is plugged into the ceiling. Is that an aftermarket built in system? If so, what manufacturer? We have a portable system, but have to attach it to the back of the passenger seat before we take off if we think we may need it...not convenient! Tim, no, we're sucking on a portable tank hung on the back of Nancy's seat. I just hang the tubing over the spot light fixtures to keep them out of the way. (I leave the tank hung on the seat all the time unless we have back seat passengers. After many years flying a Mooney w/o O2 I now find I use it on almost any flight over 2 hours. My friend/A&P does not charge me to refill the tank.)
PaulB Posted May 30, 2015 Report Posted May 30, 2015 I wish there was portable version of one of these. Seems like a good candidate for something like that to avoid the certification of a panel mounted device.
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