Pilots Bill of Rights... Again

[ryoder]

I agree with the comment about kids not wanting to drive. They live in a virtual world. Even message boards are old hat to them. They are taught that burning fossil fuels is evil as well. They are taught that risk avoidance is paramount and not risk mitigation. Kids don't go play in the woods like we used to. Hell I used to throw knives at trees and blow stuff up with a box of caps for fun. We didn't have helmets or pads. Why would we need that? Car seats? Yeah, the car has four seats, and a station wagon has plenty of room in the back for three more on a blanket. This is why

GA is dying, not because of medicals.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aviatoreb]

I agree with the comment about kids not wanting to drive. They live in a virtual world. Even message boards are old hat to them. They are taught that burning fossil fuels is evil as well. They are taught that risk avoidance is paramount and not risk mitigation. Kids don't go play in the woods like we used to. Hell I used to throw knives at trees and blow stuff up with a box of caps for fun. We didn't have helmets or pads. Why would we need that? Car seats? Yeah, the car has four seats, and a station wagon has plenty of room in the back for three more on a blanket. This is why

GA is dying, not because of medicals.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

You seriously think telling excited and eager pilots that they had better get lost and stop flying is not hurting GA?  I agree that the reasons you state are also hurting GA, but it is not a single reason issue that hurts.  Seriously, we are voting people off the island.  We are abruptly and rudely telling eager pilots that they must cease and decist now and go find something else to love. (the FAA is doing it, but it is "WE" if we do not stand up and say no more). And someday it may be you voted off the island.  In a shrinking populations for whatever reason, telling people to get lost is not helpful. 

[ryoder]

You seriously think telling excited and eager pilots that they had better get lost and stop flying is not hurting GA?  I agree that the reasons you state are also hurting GA, but it is not a single reason issue that hurts.  Seriously, we are voting people off the island.  We are abruptly and rudely telling eager pilots that they must cease and decist now and go find something else to love. (the FAA is doing it, but it is "WE" if we do not stand up and say no more). And someday it may be you voted off the island.  In a shrinking populations for whatever reason, telling people to get lost is not helpful.

Yeah it is hurting GA. But it always has hurt GA and GA is now on the verge of extinction. So what has changed? Fewer entrants. That's the source of GA's death. I like the medical. I think they should loosen it up a bit though.

[aviatoreb]

Yeah it is hurting GA. But it always has hurt GA and GA is now on the verge of extinction. So what has changed? Fewer entrants.

 

Ok so we agree to that.  Yes, fewer entrants hurts terribly.  But what has changed - I take it that this stupid medical has always been useless, since the beginning, but GA could afford to chase off eager flying pilots when there were plenty to spare. Now there are not, so we need to conserve.  Think of it as switching from regular to LED light bulbs.  What has changed?  We have less to spare.

 

That's the source of GA's death. I like the medical. I think they should loosen it up a bit though.

 

That's a fair position, although I disagree.  If you like the medical then fine.  That's different from saying that it is not hurting GA.

[ryoder]

If I am honest I want my representatives working on a few key issues. The main one is the utter destruction of ISIS, Al Queida, Al Shabob, and stopping Iran from getting nukes. Another is balancing the budget. The next is reducing governments size and scope. Way down on the list is eliminating the medical. I am way more interested in part 23 rewrite. But even that means nothing in the face of radical Islam.

[Marauder]

Yeah it is hurting GA. But it always has hurt GA and GA is now on the verge of extinction. So what has changed? Fewer entrants. That's the source of GA's death. I like the medical. I think they should loosen it up a bit though.

You'll like the medical right up to the point you have an issue. You want to hear medical horror stories? I have one and I'm sure many others on this site have them as well.

Would you walk away from aviation if you had to pony up $6K to have testing done to document (not prove) something medical specialists treating you say are not needed because you're fine? Well that crap happens with the FAA medicals system.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ryoder]

You'll like the medical right up to the point you have an issue. You want to hear medical horror stories? I have one and I'm sure many others on this site have them as well.

Would you walk away from aviation if you had to pony up $6K to have testing done to document (not prove) something medical specialists treating you say are not needed because you're fine? Well that crap happens with the FAA medicals system.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's what I mean. I think it should be less critical and easier to get signoff from a doctor that you are safe. I do like the concept of a medical bar that must be met to fly and I hate big government. I'm no expert on the medical issue but you have to realize that for many of us we are not as concerned about it as others and I am getting sick of aopa talking about it, asking for money, and making no visible progress. I'd actually like to pay them to stop asking me for money every month. They are close to being spam.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aviatoreb]

That's what I mean. I think it should be less critical and easier to get signoff from a doctor that you are safe. I do like the concept of a medical bar that must be met to fly and I hate big government. I'm no expert on the medical issue but you have to realize that for many of us we are not as concerned about it as others and I am getting sick of aopa talking about it, asking for money, and making no visible progress. I'd actually like to pay them to stop asking me for money every month. They are close to being spam.

 

It seems from my seat as an inconsistent position that you say you hate big government but you want government to have a rule that says you should spend money for someone to arbitrarily say you are healthy or not, and then an intricate FAA system manned by lots of other bureaucrats so that you can spend lots more money so that will consider if you might get an exemption back.

 

 

 

If I am honest I want my representatives working on a few key issues. The main one is the utter destruction of ISIS, Al Queida, Al Shabob, and stopping Iran from getting nukes. Another is balancing the budget. The next is reducing governments size and scope. Way down on the list is eliminating the medical. I am way more interested in part 23 rewrite. But even that means nothing in the face of radical Islam.

 

I fail to see how keeping the 3rd class medical will harm ISIS.  Or Al Queida or Shabob.  Or how cancelling the 3rd class medical would hurt the world's efforts to defeat them.  Just like I fail to see how keeping the third class medical will predict who might spontaneously drop dead during the next 24 months.  Let's drop the 3rd class medical and spend our time and money worrying about some of the other things that you mentioned.  That's what smaller government is - less rules that do nothing.

[MyNameIsNobody]

I couldn't agree more...with Erik on this Ryoder. You are a BIG G team player Hawk. We had our Trillion dollar run in the Middle East and a President that wanted us out was voted in twice and got us out.

THE END.

Stop meddling in the Middle East USA.

Stop wasting millions on third class medical that provides zero value to GA.

[MyNameIsNobody]

why don't you run a poll on who wants the US to send ground troops into middle East to "utterly destroy ISIS"...

See how that works out for you. What is your plan after you "utterly destroy ISIS"?

Occupation?

Generational change takes...generations.

You got the human capitol and money for that?

I think not.

[MyNameIsNobody]

AOPA and the majority of members are laser focused on elimination of 3rd class medical...yet there are "goofy" ( I will use goofy instead of the words I would like to use) members that actually think the 3rd class medical is a "good thing".

YOU are the problem. At least you financially support an organization that you don't agree with even though they are advocating on your behalf.

Kinda goofy...

[ryoder]

Mooneyspace, where individual thought is discouraged.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Not at all. By all means have your individual thoughts, beliefs, practices, customs...and I will have mine and challenge others when I question the negative impact of them. Especially on an aviation website...

Change me. Convince me that the 3rd class medical is a value/benefit...Something concrete that will swing me vs. how you "feel" about it. Others, including myself have stated actual examples of the negative impact the medical has had. Those are not "swaying" your opinion. Either you are bull stuborn, you don't like/want to be challenged or you have a solid reason for why you want the medical.

What is that reason?

This is a debate. The debate has people on both sides. I have been waiting for an argument to keep it that has any merit. I am tired of waiting...I am sorry you feel I am discouraging your "individual thought". I am trying to understand your position and ringing in on mine.

[aviatoreb]

Mooneyspace, where individual thought is discouraged.

 

Actually, I hope you agree I have been quite polite with you, but taking a debating and contrary opinion.  My individual opinion is opposite of yours and I have been saying specifically why and with details.

[Yooper Rocketman]

I've been pretty busy on my project plane so haven't been on the site much lately.  I have to respond to this topic though, as my best friend is currently in the nightmare process of getting his medical again.  He has not even tried to get it in since 2009 because the cost is so prohibitive.  He's a Nam vet, has VA benefits, but the testing and reporting requirements are beyond what the VA will pay for on an annual basis.  I'm not a doctor, and don't know medical terms, but during a calcium test done 10 years ago (done voluntarily as a preventative medical choice), they found what I think is called a minor aortic aneurism.  He reported it, as duly required, and the fun began in earnest.  The first few years he did the tests, spending upwards of $5k to $6k every year, and the feds giving him is "one year medical" about 4 months after his physical (so essentially an 8 month medical).  By 2008 he said it wasn't cost effective anymore.  This year he was able to get some of the tests covered by the VA, so decided to give it another try.

 

Keep in mind, he's never been denied a third class medical, so clearly all this testing has discovered nothing to preclude his passing the medical standards.  In addition, he's passed a DOT physical every year since 2006 and driven an over the road truck in both the US and Canada during this entire time frame.  So he applies for the medical just under 60 days ago.  He's deferred with all his paperwork going to the FAA.  A few weeks later he gets his 3 page letter of conditions, tests, doctors reports, and doctors statements he needs to compile, all within 60 days, or he is denied his medical.  It takes a couple weeks to get all the tests arranged and statement requests, then he leaves for Finland to see his son and grandchildren on a planned 3 week vacation.  He got back yesterday and has just a couple days left to get all this stuff into the FAA, and having been out of the country, has had no ability to "manage" the many different requests so they will be ready to submit by his deadline.  The statement from his cardiologist now says he should have never been diagnosed with the original aneurism, as in further review, he feels he's had this since birth, and it was barely at a size to be concerned.

 

To add to the pain, every time he submits for a medical, the FAA asks for more info than the last time.  20 years on hypertension pills but now needs a doctors statement this is under control.  (I'm on the same meds and have never had this demand).

 

Are we loosing pilots due to the third class medical?  Your dreaming if you think we are not.  I talked him out of selling his plane two years ago.  It's the beautiful E model covered in plastic behind my Rocket, with a fresh annual waiting for it's owner to get the almighty FAA approval for his 3rd class medical.

 

Tom

[ryoder]

Do what you want with the medical. I don't think it would be terrible to repeal it for private operations. It's just not something I am passionate about and I won't fork over thousands of dollars to lobby for it.

This site tends to encourage group think though. It's typical of Internet forums. I tend to go my own way and this upsets people.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

Do what you want with the medical. I don't think it would be terrible to repeal it for private operations. It's just not something I am passionate about and I won't fork over thousands of dollars to lobby for it.

This site tends to encourage group think though. It's typical of Internet forums. I tend to go my own way and this upsets people.

I for one, have no problem with people presenting their opinion. That is what is great about this country.

As for your comment, "It's just not something I am passionate about and I won't fork over thousands of dollars to lobby for it." You don't need to fork over a penny to lobby for it. However just be prepared for later in life to fork over thousands of dollars to keep doing something you are passionate about... flying.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

I've been pretty busy on my project plane so haven't been on the site much lately. I have to respond to this topic though, as my best friend is currently in the nightmare process of getting his medical again. He has not even tried to get it in since 2009 because the cost is so prohibitive. He's a Nam vet, has VA benefits, but the testing and reporting requirements are beyond what the VA will pay for on an annual basis. I'm not a doctor, and don't know medical terms, but during a calcium test done 10 years ago (done voluntarily as a preventative medical choice), they found what I think is called a minor aortic aneurism. He reported it, as duly required, and the fun began in earnest. The first few years he did the tests, spending upwards of $5k to $6k every year, and the feds giving him is "one year medical" about 4 months after his physical (so essentially an 8 month medical). By 2008 he said it wasn't cost effective anymore. This year he was able to get some of the tests covered by the VA, so decided to give it another try.

Keep in mind, he's never been denied a third class medical, so clearly all this testing has discovered nothing to preclude his passing the medical standards. In addition, he's passed a DOT physical every year since 2006 and driven an over the road truck in both the US and Canada during this entire time frame. So he applies for the medical just under 60 days ago. He's deferred with all his paperwork going to the FAA. A few weeks later he gets his 3 page letter of conditions, tests, doctors reports, and doctors statements he needs to compile, all within 60 days, or he is denied his medical. It takes a couple weeks to get all the tests arranged and statement requests, then he leaves for Finland to see his son and grandchildren on a planned 3 week vacation. He got back yesterday and has just a couple days left to get all this stuff into the FAA, and having been out of the country, has had no ability to "manage" the many different requests so they will be ready to submit by his deadline. The statement from his cardiologist now says he should have never been diagnosed with the original aneurism, as in further review, he feels he's had this since birth, and it was barely at a size to be concerned.

To add to the pain, every time he submits for a medical, the FAA asks for more info than the last time. 20 years on hypertension pills but now needs a doctors statement this is under control. (I'm on the same meds and have never had this demand).

Are we loosing pilots due to the third class medical? Your dreaming if you think we are not. I talked him out of selling his plane two years ago. It's the beautiful E model covered in plastic behind my Rocket, with a fresh annual waiting for it's owner to get the almighty FAA approval for his 3rd class medical.

Tom

Tom -- thanks for sharing your friend's story. Many of us have lived through (and paid for) similar fates. The system needs reformed. I just hope the grown ups do the right thing.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[MyNameIsNobody]

No, I want the FAA/DOT Federal Government to do what the majority of your pilot brothers and sisters want. I (waving guilt removal wand) say to thee "You are free from guilt by AOPA and other lobbyists"...

I have never been called a Sheeple, but with regards to elimination of 3rd class medical, think about many that are seasoned pilots and aircraft owners that still are competent pilots and possess a drivers license...Don't you want to help them continue to fly?

I strongly believe you SHOULD feel passionately on this as a fellow pilot...but as stated by Fleetwood Mac..."Go your own way"

[aviatoreb]

I've been pretty busy on my project plane so haven't been on the site much lately. ..

 

Are we loosing pilots due to the third class medical?  Your dreaming if you think we are not.  I talked him out of selling his plane two years ago.  It's the beautiful E model covered in plastic behind my Rocket, with a fresh annual waiting for it's owner to get the almighty FAA approval for his 3rd class medical.

 

Tom

 

Thanks for the story Tom.

 

This just sounds like harassment of an upstanding citizen.  Once the FAA medical system has their eye on you, there is no way out. 

 

Those are both beautiful airplanes by the way.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Tom -- thanks for sharing your friend's story. Many of us have lived through (and paid for) similar fates. The system needs reformed. I just hope the grown ups do the right thing.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1

[mike28w]

I don't believe that our Congress could agree on which way is up....  I'm only 59 and healthy ...but I firmly believe that I'll be dead and gone before any change is made.     AND.....Aopa and EAA will still be asking for money and saying that "we're almost there"....

 

Yes, I have contacted my representative and Senators...they "yessed" me and assured me that they would do everything they could  and then put me on their mailing list to ask for money......   

 

What part of this story should be encouraging ???

 

I really do wonder what would happen if pilots just quit getting their flight physicals ( 3rd class).......How could the FAA enforce this ?  I certainly know of a number of folks who don't have them and have had no problems.

 

 Of course they don't carry insurance on their planes.   If enough people refused to get a medical, I'd bet that an insurance company would create a policy to pick up this part of the market. ( It would be a pretty safe bet for the insurance company , as it has already been proven that folks without medicals are NOT falling out of the sky)

[ryoder]

Keep in mind that I am not the only pilot who thinks the medical ain't so bad. Pretty much the entire staff at my flight school thinks the medical serves a valid purpose. I tried to talk to them about the benefits of LSA and sport pilot but they scoffed at it, thinking I was crazy to even consider it. Go to a 141 school and ask if third class medical reform is top of mind. It's not. They also think nothing of ultralights, gliders, and LSA.

[mike28w]

Keep in mind that I am not the only pilot who thinks the medical ain't so bad. Pretty much the entire staff at my flight school thinks the medical serves a valid purpose. I tried to talk to them about the benefits of LSA and sport pilot but they scoffed at it, thinking I was crazy to even consider it. Go to a 141 school and ask if third class medical reform is top of mind. It's not. They also think nothing of ultralights, gliders, and LSA.

 

   So........

[MyNameIsNobody]

I hear obtuse is really in right now...