Tommy Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Hi guys! Is there a ready-made fuel stick for a J? Thanks! Quote
Marauder Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Hi guys! Is there a ready-made fuel stick for a J? Thanks! None that I am aware of. Sounds like a business opportunity. Norm Smith would have been all over it RIP Norm. 1 Quote
StinkBug Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 There's a long discussion about this in the vintage mooney forum. Search dip stick. The answer is no, you will have to make your own. Quote
Tommy Posted January 24, 2015 Author Report Posted January 24, 2015 Even an approximated one? So we have to physically drain the fuel to calibrate a stick? Yikes! Quote
Awqward Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Yes, Tommy it surprised me as well that someone has not already created one AND is willing to share....Because, for sure some people have gone to the trouble ....but rather than draining a tank, if you have a properly calibrated fuel flow totalizer you can do it by sticking to just the one tank from full....although better to only have half or less in the other tank so as to avoid significant lateral balance issues....btw, I have not done this...it'so just an idea....I have the in-wing sight gauges which seem to be reasonably accurate.. Quote
Tommy Posted January 24, 2015 Author Report Posted January 24, 2015 It just seems like a lot of work that is still going to be an approximation anyway (total drainable fuel doesn't necessary means total fuel or toal fuel available). Besides how many of you actually verified the accuracy of the fuel stick handed down from the previous owner? If the wing is constructed and built the same way - would extra sealant or tank bladder change much the capacity of the fuel tank? - I don't see why a generic fuel stick can't be made. Anyone here has got a calibrated fuel stick for a 1980+ M20J? If so would you kindly share the measurements? And if we can pool together 5 or more measurements then we can have average them to have a really good generic stick! And yes, happy to accept any legal disclaimer like "use my stick at your own risk!!" Thanks! Quote
MooneyBob Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 I have one that came with the plane from previous owner. It works pretty well however I never really verified the accuracy. I always round the amount of fuel down to nearest gallon or two. I will take a picture of it with the ruler next to it so maybe people can copy and fabricate one. Not today though as I have some nasty white surprise in my driveway. 1 Quote
MooneyBob Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 It just seems like a lot of work that is still going to be an approximation anyway (total drainable fuel doesn't necessary means total fuel or toal fuel available). If the wing is built and contructed the same way - would extra sealant or bladder change much the capacity of the fuel tank? - I don't see why a generic fuel stick can't be made. Anyone here has got a calibrated fuel stick for a 1980+ M20J? If so would you kindly share the measurements? And if we can pool together 5 or more measurements then we can have average them to have a really good generic stick! And yes, happy to accept any legal disclaimer like "use my stick at your own risk!!" Thanks! My stick is made from 1/8" aluminum plate ( so technically it's not a stick) so it depends where you put it on the bottom of the tank. It can be 1-2 gallon difference in reading. That's why I am cautious to rsly on it too much. Quote
Awqward Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Btw, I'm pretty sure RACWA have them....you could contact Glen Caple there maybe...of course they will use litres Quote
Danb Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Bob aren't these n'easters wonderful.....at least it not like last yr...... 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Tommy, Consider adding the wing mounted fuel gauges. The engineering level CB club loves their paint sticks with the personalized accuracy that they provide... Your clients probably won't be impressed with you if you have to explain the accuracy of such a simple device. I believe they can be installed into one of the top access panels of each tank and are probably available from your favorite MSC. My plane came from the factory with them installed already... Best regards, -a- Quote
midlifeflyer Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Even an approximated one? So we have to physically drain the fuel to calibrate a stick? Yikes! If you are needing a reading all the way down to nu usable fuel, maybe. I made one from a wood dowel for a Comanche some years ago. Before every fill-up I put the stick in the tank, marked the reading, and recorded how much I added. Within 6 or so flights I had something good enough for my purposes. Quote
StinkBug Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 *snip* Besides how many of you actually verified the accuracy of the fuel stick handed down from the previous owner? If the wing is constructed and built the same way - would extra sealant or tank bladder change much the capacity of the fuel tank? - I don't see why a generic fuel stick can't be made. You just anwered your own question. There are a bunch of variables and a number of different tank capacities among the Mooney fleet, as well as mods that change the readings. Factor in the relative small number of our planes compared to say 172s and the people selling these things aren't interested. Someone already posted a list of measurements in the other thread that seem to work for a lot of us. Oh btw, I bought one of the straw style sticks for a PA-28 when I was doing my training.....it was inaccurate right out of the box. Dont think that just because someone sold it to you it's better than doing the work yourself. Quote
Bob - S50 Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 Even an approximated one? So we have to physically drain the fuel to calibrate a stick? Yikes! Tommy, Not that big of a deal. Easier with two people though. 1. Go fly the plane until you have a little less than half a tank of fuel. 2. Get something like a 2.5 gallon gas can. 3. Drain one tank through the gascolator, one can at a time and pour it into the other wing. 4. Once you have gotten everything out through the gascolator, get the rest through the sump. Probably less than a quart left at that point anyway. 5. Start up on the wing with fuel and taxi over to the pumps. 6. Add the 'unusable' amount of fuel. That's 1.25 gallons on the J. Don't know about the others. 7. Add fuel in whatever increment you want your stick to be calibrated in... 1 gallon, 2 gallons, 5 gallons... up to you. I think you'll find you have to add about 7 gallons or so before you'll even have fuel under the cap. 8. After each incremental addition, mark your stick. You only need to do that up to the tabs, no need to go all the way to full. If you ever want a known quantity above the tabs, just fill to the tabs, then use the pump to add any extra you want. Before you do all that, pick your stick carefully. Put some 100LL in a glass jar and test different sticks. If the wood is too soft, gas will wick up the stick and give you a falsely high reading. Some sticks may not get wet enough to determine what the level was. You might just end up buying one of those generic glass tubes that you put your finger over the end of and calibrate it for your airplane. Bob 1 Quote
Tommy Posted January 24, 2015 Author Report Posted January 24, 2015 My J actually comes with a wing mounted gauge but I was told not to rely on them completely. I guess for my style of flying - full tank everytime and less than 2 hours each leg - it's probably not essential but I am starting my commercial training and one of the key requirement is fuel calculation. My instructor might get suspicious of my "laziness" if I always use full tank for it! so strictly it's for training and exams. But it does give me an extra peace of mind to know exactly the amount of fuel available But what's FAA's requirement when it comes to physical inspection of fuel quantity (if it's not full tank or peg to the fuel tab)? Oh and the measurements on other topic are for C. I am hoping for J's. Anyone? Thanks! Quote
carusoam Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 The requirement is to know how much fuel you have. Pretty easy if you fill it to the top... Your CFI then tells you to fill the seats.... The next challenge is to stay within W&B. Seems like the four gauges in the plane should be enough. But, they need to be verified to work... (1) the wing gauges are accurate on the ground. Helpful, while you are filling the tanks partially. The plane is on an incline while on the ground. Your AI will be confusing at first. If you set it level on the ground it won't be level while flying...? (2) the instrument panel ones are accurate in flight at the point when they read "empty". This is tradition for aviation... Trust the gauges, but verify they are working... This is considered normal for a plane that is 'new to you'... It is 'normal' to run a tank dry in flight. Again, check your POH to verify this. If you are unable to find the time, consider paying a mechanic to do it for you... If you intend to use the gauges for fuel planning in real life, you will want to know they are verified by somebody that has the skill to do so, reliably. We have only lost one Mooney due to fuel planning issues this year. Best regards, -a- Quote
Tommy Posted January 24, 2015 Author Report Posted January 24, 2015 The trouble of running a tank dry are multitude: 1) lateral imbalance 2) no way of switching tank in event of fuel emergency on the other side - water, blockage etc. 2) prolong side slip may cut off the fuel when the tank is extremely low I was taught not to trust the gauges! They can fail and they are also not very precise. I was trained with fuel stick and fuel stick only really. To me a dip in the tank beats any sophisticated gauges any day! Besides, a very precise fuel quantity is required for my training. What if your CFI ask you to plan the other way round - how much fuel can you carry after you fill the seats, which is the usual commercial procedure! I dont think any charter company works the other way round! Fill the tank then ask the paid pax that he can't fly because of the weight! 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 (1) with experience you will see how much the imbalance really is... 1/2 tank on one side, empty in the other isn't much of an imbalance. (2) with experience, water and dirt particles won't show up after you have drained the sump. (2a) don't side slip without knowing which side to keep high...? Unexpectedly unporting(?) a tank can lead to a few uneasy moments while restoring the fuel flow... Sounds easier to have a mechanic just take care of this for you? Some mechanics will oversee you doing this type of work if you prefer... Doc, the goofy part is you trust somebody else's measurement when you don't trust your own gauge... The only way to trust any of this is to prove it to yourself. Or have somebody do it for you... The gauges can be trusted to work the same way every day. They aren't that bad. They may require some attention over the years. But they don't work today and the next day become flimsy and unreliable... I am only a PP. Not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Piloto Posted January 24, 2015 Report Posted January 24, 2015 The wing sight gauges on my 1982 M20J has been pretty reliable for assessing fuel onboard. To make sure they are not stuck when reading fuel on the ground I shake the wing and watch for needle movement on the gauge. I don't see how a dipstick is going to be better, specially inflight. José 2 Quote
aaronk25 Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 My j wing sight gauges are within 1 gallon accuracy. Piece of cake.... Quote
Tommy Posted January 25, 2015 Author Report Posted January 25, 2015 But how do you know that it's within 1 gallon accuracy? Quote
Awqward Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 By observing the reading on the gauge vs the amount of fuel it then takes to fill to the tabs... which is more accurately 25 USG (useable) than topping off because there isn't really the same consistent, observable, known stopping point when filling / squeezing to the top... You use a similar procedure for calibrating the K factor of your fuel flow transducer...except obviously by aggregating both tanks... Quote
RobertGary1 Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 In my F I have up to 6.5 gal on fuel when no visible fuel can be seen. That isn't uncommon after a long flight. I have rarely filled the tanks for the same reason I don't pull a boat around behind a vette for daily driving. It's the cheapest speed mod you'll get. -Robert 1 Quote
Rmag Posted April 27, 2017 Report Posted April 27, 2017 Resurrecting an old thread to share some answers. I had to recalibrate one of my tanks to my JPI EDM 930 fuel gauge. Completely drained the tank, added back 1.25 gallons unuseable. I have a 1987 M20J with 32 gallon tanks each wing (64 gallon total). I used a cheap yard stick you can get at the Home Depot paint department. They might be free I forget I had a few of them. I cut the yard stick down to make it smaller. Here are the measurements I took: 0 gal = 0" 8 gal = 1" 16 gal = 3 1/8" 24 gal = 5 3/8" 32 gal = 8 1/2" 1 Quote
Yetti Posted April 27, 2017 Report Posted April 27, 2017 Don't drain anything. Heavy duty paint stick. Sharpie. Carry both with you. Fly. Stick the tank. I always put it against the inside edge of the cap. Draw a line. Fill tank. Subtract gallons added from tank capacity. Write number on the stick. Do this for a couple of months and you will have the most accurate gauge evar. 3 Quote
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