When do you cut your loses?

[fantom]

Don't walk away from this deal.

RUN!!!

[jkhirsch]

Welcome to airplane ownership. Some guys have great planes they bought from great people, some don't. (sorry everyone's plane is great in their eyes)

 

You have to align your expectations correctly, you need to be mentally and emotionally prepared to 100% walk away after the pre-buy creates issues, assuming he continues down his displayed course of behavior.

 

If you don't you will be miserable.

[PTK]

The problem is the broker and not the seller as I read it.

 

You've come this far because you like the airplane and the price is fair, as you stated.

 

There is a broker involved who is, indirectly, paid by you but works for the seller.

 

You need to focus on the broker and put him on notice that you expect him to do his job! Why is he putting this on you? Why are you sending emails to the seller? What is the broker doing? Tell the broker to deal with his seller. The seller is his baby.

 

If you're going to do all this work and incur expenses why are you paying the broker?

 

Sounds to me the seller is not being overly unreasonable. It is not unreasonable, for example, for a seller to want to know the credentials of the mechanic inspecting his airplane he is selling 300 miles away, who is going to influence the buyer's decision. Any competent broker should know this.

 

 Based on what you say here this broker is far below this level. He wants the sale with minimal effort. He is putting the work on you.  

 

Don't lose a potentially good airplane due to a sub par broker. I see no legitimate reason to walk away at this early point in the process.

[aviatoreb]

Based on your follow up post, I would walk if not run at this point. This is a guy who doesn't have seller's remorse, he is a guy who is trying to sell on his terms. I agree with Tom & Erik, this has a potential to get real ugly when things pop up during the pre-buy (trust me, they will).

 

 

I will reiterate this - 

 

You are not almost done - this guy will make you lots more miserable in lots more ways if you continue entertaining his fancy - I would strongly advise you to drop him and this airplane today.  You do not need further excuses.  His continued mistreatment of you, the broker, the mechanics is all too much already and is excuse enough.

 

It blows my mind that he would jeopardize an aircraft sale for the cost of a one way car rental.  And consider likewise he is probably making either his wife, or perhaps a junior secretary in his law firm, donate their time to drive 600 miles round trip so as to save him $150 on a one way car rental.  This is one cheap lawyer.  He will torture you with more absurdities before you are done with him if you continue letting him.

 

Personally I would not give my money to a nasty person like that no matter how good the deal seems - because you know what - from the nature of the dealings you are describing - this guy has no good deal to give you - he would not give you anything - I would not put it past him to lie cheat and steal - meaning I would not trust him as far as I could throw that if there is some problem with the airplane that he would not do his best to hide it from you and cheat you into it - not everything can be found in the prebuy and to some degree you rely on the humanity of our fellow aviators not to cheat us (or risk our skins on a problem airplane system that slips past a prebuy).  Plus expect nasty dealings from him when items are found in the prebuy.

[Bob_Belville]

Even though I have several lawyers in my family, I think the best advice of all the good advice above is to walk because the seller is a lawyer. There are plenty of exceptions but this guy seems to be typical of the breed and they can not help being difficult, it's what they do. 

 

I bought my E from a great guy, retired military, loved the plane, wanted it to have a good home, flew it 400 miles to my PPI shop on a Sunday without any agreement, I paid for his gas home. The plane had some deficiencies but nothing affecting airworthiness. The next day I sent him an email offering him ~10% less than his ask (no dealer involved). He accepted my offer the next day by email. I did a title search and he delivered the plane to my field where I had a bank check ready. He had the plane full of extra stuff, engine heater, battery charger, books and mags, lots of files, spare parts... His girl friend drove down from Washington to pick him up.    

 

The key? Neither of us got a lawyer involved!

[Bob_Belville]

I will reiterate this - 

 

You are not almost done - this guy will make you lots more miserable in lots more ways if you continue entertaining his fancy - I would strongly advise you to drop him and this airplane today.  You do not need further excuses.  His continued mistreatment of you, the broker, the mechanics is all too much already and is excuse enough.

 

It blows my mind that he would jeopardize an aircraft sale for the cost of a one way car rental.  And consider likewise he is probably making either his wife, or perhaps a junior secretary in his law firm, donate their time to drive 600 miles round trip so as to save him $150 on a one way car rental.  This is one cheap lawyer.  He will torture you with more absurdities before you are done with him if you continue letting him.

 

Personally I would not give my money to a nasty person like that no matter how good the deal seems - because you know what - from the nature of the dealings you are describing - this guy has no good deal to give you - he would not give you anything - I would not put it past him to lie cheat and steal - meaning I would not trust him as far as I could throw that if there is some problem with the airplane that he would not do his best to hide it from you and cheat you into it - not everything can be found in the prebuy and to some degree you rely on the humanity of our fellow aviators not to cheat us (or risk our skins on a problem airplane system that slips past a prebuy).  Plus expect nasty dealings from him when items are found in the prebuy.

Plus 1 

 

Life is too short to deal with SOBs.

[1964-M20E]

I would walk!! Number one...your dealing with a lawyer. Number two.. your dealing with a lawyer.

+2

[1964-M20E]

What's the tail number?

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I've had a lot of bad experiences with lawyers in my life (divorce, real estate, business), and based on that, plus the seller's behavior so far, I'd be down the road post haste.

 

I've purchased four aircraft in my flying career and count myself lucky that all four of my sellers combined have created less than 1% of the hassle that this guy has. You can definitely do better.

 

Good luck, and I'm sorry this deal's not going well for you so far.

[rbridges]

No way to say it's fact, but if he's that frugal and difficult to work with in a sale, I kinda wonder how he maintained the plane.  Did he cut corners to save a nickel?  Maybe he's a different person in that regard, but it sure wouldn't bolster my confidence.

[Matt Michael]

It can be really hard to find a good plane so I understand wanting to hang onto this one. But the deal does not have to be difficult and shouldn't be. When I got mine a year ago everything with the seller was smooth as silk. That was not necessarily the case with the previous eight airplanes I looked at. You learn something from every one that you walk away from. It's not wasted time or money though it sure feels like it at the time!

Try to think of yourself as being in the driver seat. You can buy any airplane. It doesn't have to be this one (though if it's a really good one I'm sure it feels like that). Tell the broker you're still interested but you're sick of the Mickey Mouse and you're looking at other planes. If the seller really wants to sell he will make it happen. It's a buyers market or as I like to say a buyers beware market.

[TTaylor]

You have had plenty of advice to walk away and I can't disagree with that. You are not almost done, you are just beginning the process with this control freak.

If you decide to continue you need to make a few changes:

1. Change your mindset about the money. You are dealing with an airplane. A few AMU one way or the other is nothing and if you can't handle it you aren't ready to own a Mooney.

2. This is going to take time. Get a meditation mat and learn to breathe and relax.

3. Take the time element out of the deal. Allow him to drop the p!and off when he is ready and go home. The plane will be inspected when your mechanic has time at the mechanic's pace. Then you will have the fun of the final negotiations at a slower pace.

If it is a good plane it will be worth the time as long as you take control and destress the process.

[Matt Michael]

As my girlfriend Sarah says, "Mooney is just Money with an extra zero!"

[bnicolette]

I can't imagine a PPI taking only one day? Is he prepared to leave the plane with your shop for a day or two? Sounded like he was going to be staying with the plane while the mechanic inspects it? He should be prepared to spend the night.

DON'T let your mechanic Rush through it just to satisfy the seller. You're the one you're mechanic is looking out for.

Be prepared to walk if you get a laundry list of non airworthy items. Which could be the case if this guy is as cheap as he sounds.

Just be careful.

It doesn't take long to spend many thousands of AMU's even on an extremely well kept airplane.

[rbridges]

You have had plenty of advice to walk away and I can't disagree with that. You are not almost done, you are just beginning the process with this control freak.

3. Take the time element out of the deal. Allow him to drop the p!and off when he is ready and go home. 

 

 

you called him a control freak, and I agree.  I have a hard time believing he would drop the plane off and go knowing he may have to come back and get it.  He also strikes me as the type of guy that wants to be there to argue about the findings.

[Wakeup]

Life is too short to deal with jerks ..especially a lawyer. He is probably billing you for his services I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't get a statement in the mail today. Buying a plane should not be work. It should be fun and exciting. Troy

[jkhirsch]

Don't let these guys get you all distraught over nothing. He's been a pain in the ass...whoopty-doo, maintain perspective and it's truly no skin off your back.

 

The important thing, like I said before is to have your expectations in line with the possible outcomes, be prepared to walk away, but don't walk away over some humpty dumpty nonsense. Don't get on some high horse thinking you can "punish" this guy by not buying his plane. Forget all the buyers market sellers market, if it's a good plane and well maintained someone is going to buy it, that someone might as well be you.

 

However if he balks at important things, like having a PPI/Annual done correctly, that's where you begin to have concern. As far as brokers go, they all want the easy route and everyone to be happy, therefore they speak out of both sides of their mouths at times to accomplish that. (Total aside: the FAA recognizes a PPI just as they do an annual)

 

Put pressure on the broker to keep facilitating the deal, and keep moving down the road towards the purchase.

 

If he's unwilling to cooperate with the necessary requirements draw your line somewhere that potentially puts you at financial or personal health risk.

 

Don't get caught up in the noise and foolish groupthink, I'm assuming you've found the plane that you think is right for you and the deal is moving along. It might not be at the pace or pleasantry that we would all like, but to be colloquial and hokey-good things are generally worth waiting for.

[fantom]

Planes only been flying 20 or so hours per year recently (major engine red flag), and had the tanks done last year (by whom???).

 

Do you really think the PPI will go smoothly, and do you really want to fight with the butt---- lawyer, face to face?????

 

Why do you think that from the paperwork you reviewed, this is a 'good plane'.????? 

 

RUN......

[Bob_Belville]

Don't let these guys get you all distraught over nothing. He's been a pain in the ass...whoopty-doo, maintain perspective and it's truly no skin off your back.

 

The important thing, like I said before is to have your expectations in line with the possible outcomes, be prepared to walk away, but don't walk away over some humpty dumpty nonsense. Don't get on some high horse thinking you can "punish" this guy by not buying his plane. Forget all the buyers market sellers market, if it's a good plane and well maintained someone is going to buy it, that someone might as well be you.

 

However if he balks at important things, like having a PPI/Annual done correctly, that's where you begin to have concern. As far as brokers go, they all want the easy route and everyone to be happy, therefore they speak out of both sides of their mouths at times to accomplish that. (Total aside: the FAA recognizes a PPI just as they do an annual)

 

Put pressure on the broker to keep facilitating the deal, and keep moving down the road towards the purchase.

 

If he's unwilling to cooperate with the necessary requirements draw your line somewhere that potentially puts you at financial or personal health risk.

 

Don't get caught up in the noise and foolish groupthink, I'm assuming you've found the plane that you think is right for you and the deal is moving along. It might not be at the pace or pleasantry that we would all like, but to be colloquial and hokey-good things are generally worth waiting for.

Hum... is the seller your father-in-law? 

 

Mooney built 11,000 planes, he can find one that isn't owned by a lawyer. 

[jkhirsch]

Hum... is the seller your father-in-law? 

 

Mooney built 11,000 planes, he can find one that isn't owned by a lawyer. 

  Negative

 

But as far as my knowledge goes, there has been no legitmate reason to walk away from the airplane at this point.

[RobertGary1]

  Negative

 

But as far as my knowledge goes, there has been no legitmate reason to walk away from the airplane at this point.

 

Honestly, my only concern is that the OP stated that he's concerned about the cost of the extra hassle. I hope he understands that the price of the airplane is really just the first check of many, many, many to be written in his ownership experience. Someone once told me that to prepare for airplane ownership you should start by standing over the toilet and dropping dollar bills down until it stops hurting. As a masochist, I own a couple of airplanes. To be truthful, if I needed loan to buy one I'd probably not buy. Just my opinion on that. I just had an unexpected cost for my Mooney that totaled around $40K. You have to be ready to write that check at any point.

 

-Robert

[jkhirsch]

........

-Robert

 

I'll second that, but if he hasn't already weighed those outcomes, I believe in letting people make their own choices/mistakes.

[Sabremech]

from an A&P's viewpoint, there isn't any such thing as an "airworthy" or "un airworthy" squawk. They are either in limits or out of limits.

Be careful of the verbiage in a pre purchase inspection.

David

[Bob_Belville]

from an A&P's viewpoint, there isn't any such thing as an "airworthy" or "un airworthy" squawk. They are either in limits or out of limits.

Be careful of the verbiage in a pre purchase inspection.

David

David, are there not some items that an A&P might tell an owner about that would not prevent the IA (perhaps the same guy) from returning an aircraft to service after an annual inspection? Would an inop flap position indicator or a broken overhead vent cable make the plane not airworthy?   

[Sabremech]

Hi Bob,

If those items are in the maint manual with limits on them it might make the airplane unairworthy, but a squawk is not airworthy or non airworthy. They are in limits or out of limits. It's the airplane as a whole that we should use the "airworthy" verbiage. I'm in the middle of a pre buy right now on a corporate jet as the sellers rep and I have learned quite a bit lately on things I assumed were correct. A lot has changed since I sold my own airplane.

David