pirep on flying the Aspen 1000 Pro

[ArtVandelay]

I'd prefer not to say. It is a well know shop, and I believe it was installed properly. The issue seems to be the quality of the units, not the install. So far, its been a warranty issue, and nothing that has caused a dangerous situation. But thinking about flying a GPS approach around mountains and loosing the GPS is uncomfortable. There is a serious down side to integrating everything in one box.

Anyway, I am hoping the third one will be reliable. If not, I may end up with a King or Avidyne.

I say your chances of getting 3 bad boxes is near 0, but it being an install problem is 99% if the 3rd one doesn't work out

[chrisk]

Two questions:

1. Believing it was installed properly, why are you uncomfortable naming the shop?

2. What facts do you base your 'proper installation' assumption on?

Good luck getting it repaired.

 

Fine, the shop is Crystal Avionics.  They have a very good reputation, work on a ton of Mooneys, and install lots of Garmins.  I believe All American uses them, as well as several member on Mooneyspace.  They have also worked very hard at accommodating me.  And everything else they have installed has worked flawlessly.    They have also been very thorough in their problem solving approach.  An example is when my first GTN would not maintain GPS lock in the air.  When I took delivery of the plane, it worked in the air.  Within a week it would no longer lock in the air, but was fine on the ground.  Crystal replaced the antenna and antenna wiring after a consultation with Garmin, then test flew the plane.  The problem was not solved.  Finally swapping in a new GTN solved the problem.   The second GTN lasted 9 months before it decided to "go dark with a smoke odor".  Nothing else was broken, just the GTN.  Guess what fixed it?  A new GTN.  --So, why do I think the install is good?   I used a good shop, and they have been in the panel 3 times to look over things.  The things that could have caused a problem would have been very basic.  --A bad job on the antenna, and/or a bad power connection.  I don't believe they would have let these things go if they had the plane.  And they specifically have at this point triple checked these things.

 

Now, why would I not want to mention the shop name?  I don't think the issue is with the shop, so it's not relevant.   And I really don't want to tarnish their name by associating it with what appears to be a quality issue of the equipment manufacturer.   To paint a proper picture I end up typing a longer story, but not nearly as long as I'd like it to be.

[PTK]

My Aspen has been rock solid compared to my GTN650....

Then when I finally get back to the airport and land, the Aspen shows the "Red X".   It turns out that there was nothing wrong with the Aspen...

 

Is there any possibility it may be a faulty Aspen and/or install that's causing the issues?

[chrisk]

Is there any possibility it may be a faulty Aspen and/or install that's causing the issues?

No.  The Aspen, GTN650, transponder, modern radio, and PMA8000 audio panel all went in at the same time.   I think the only thing left in the stack was the KN53 VOR/ILS.  The Aspen is definitely not the issue.  And I think the install is good (see post above).  Anyway, I have 30+ hours on the replacemtn (3rd) GTN.  So far all is good.

[M016576]

Is there any possibility it may be a faulty Aspen and/or install that's causing the issues?

Lol- you're relentless.

when I worked in the test world, we had models that would show the "mean time between expected failure" of new avionics and systems. Typically those numbers were very high (failures vs time in service) for a new system, but the curve would flatten out as the time went on.

It's called growing pains in layman's terms... And no matter how good your QA department, all new systems go through these growing pains... even Garmins.

Obviously companies do their best to minimize these issues, but the curve still remains... Regardless who stamps their symbol on the box.

[ArtVandelay]

New?! GTNs have been out for 3 years IIRC

[Marauder]

New?! GTNs have been out for 3 years IIRC

That's not a lot of time for an electronics device that is supposed to have a life of 15 years or more.

Mo's point is that infant mortality happens in electronics. It could be suppliers of components not meeting specs, quality of components, environmental conditions (especially true of avionics) and pre-mature component degradation to name a few.

Add in the installation introduced problems, complexity of interfaces and variables in the installed environment, you end up with failures. All electronic manufacturers deal with this.

Add in the idiot factor (someone claiming issues but not knowing how to use the product), you can see why a product might get a bad name.

Aspen, Garmin, Avidyne all deal with issues. It is the quality of the service (and the cost) you are provided to resolve these that may help offset the inconvenience of premature failures that you might encounter. Garmin has issued several firmware updates to deal with Comm issues. Aspen has several for their fixes.

No one is immune...

[chrisk]

That's not a lot of time for an electronics device that is supposed to have a life of 15 years or more.

Mo's point is that infant mortality happens in electronics. It could be suppliers of components not meeting specs, quality of components, environmental conditions (especially true of avionics) and pre-mature component degradation to name a few.

Add in the installation introduced problems, complexity of interfaces and variables in the installed environment, you end up with failures. All electronic manufacturers deal with this.

Add in the idiot factor (someone claiming issues but not knowing how to use the product), you can see why a product might get a bad name.

Aspen, Garmin, Avidyne all deal with issues. It is the quality of the service (and the cost) you are provided to resolve these that may help offset the inconvenience of premature failures that you might encounter. Garmin has issued several firmware updates to deal with Comm issues. Aspen has several for their fixes.

No one is immune...

 

Well said.   There is a period where it can be assumed the manufacturer is shipping products with a less than optimal design (i.e. a design with problems).   This is particularly true of newly designed products, especially if they are not a derivative product.  Its true for software, cars, planes, and avionics.  Usually the initial volume is low enough that the big issues are resolved quickly by replacement.   

[PTK]

...Mo's point is that infant mortality happens in electronics. It could be suppliers of components not meeting specs, quality of components, environmental conditions (especially true of avionics) and pre-mature component degradation to name a few.

Add in the installation introduced problems, complexity of interfaces and variables in the installed environment, you end up with failures.

Agreed, as long as the customer is not asked to foot the bills. These are solely the responsibility of the manufacturer.

...It is the quality of the service (and the cost) you are provided to resolve these that may help offset the inconvenience of premature failures that you might encounter.

Hogwash!!

Having paid the big bucks only to end up with equipment that failed and no recourse is not my definition of "quality" service.

Why? Because I refuse to be their guinea pig and pay for their R&D. Also I refuse to let them use my airplane as their learn as they go platform.

Quality of service would be a clause along the lines that if their equipment fails during the warranty period and failure is no fault of the customer, customer has the choice. Either accept a replacement or return the equipment to manufacturer for reimbursement of purchase price plus installation, less a reasonable "restocking fee" of a small percentage, say 10%. If customer accepts a replacement the warranty starts new again the day it's installed in the panel.

Why? Because the manufacturer sells the equipment through their "approved" avionics installers!

That would be fair and what I'd consider quality service.

[Marauder]

Let me ask you this Peter. As a dentist, have you ever had a patient come back with warranty work? Be honest.

[PTK]

These are two totally different things and cannot be compared for obvious reasons.

But since you asked, when a patient comes back to my office with a problem it is usually due to something they caused or some defect in the material. A fractured filling or porcelain on prostheses are good examples. Even so, as long as it's within a reasonable length of time, we resolve their issue and they're not charged. Not one FDR dime!

[M016576]

Agreed, as long as the customer is not asked to foot the bills. These are solely the responsibility of the manufacturer.

Hogwash!!

Having paid the big bucks only to end up with equipment that failed and no recourse is not my definition of "quality" service.

Why? Because I refuse to be their guinea pig and pay for their R&D. Also I refuse to let them use my airplane as their learn as they go platform.

Quality of service would be a clause along the lines that if their equipment fails during the warranty period and failure is no fault of the customer, customer has the choice. Either accept a replacement or return the equipment to manufacturer for reimbursement of purchase price plus installation, less a reasonable "restocking fee" of a small percentage, say 10%.

Why? Because the manufacturer sells the equipment through their "approved" avionics installers!

That would be fair and what I'd consider quality service.

The best way to avoid software / hardware issues with new technology is to avoid adopting it until the initial kinks are worked out. That goes with basically everything technology related....

If QA was so good that there were never problems, then the concept of "version X.X.X" and "Mod X" wouldn't exist. There would just be version 1, version 2, etc.

But.... There are people out there that enjoy working with the latest systems, and watching them develop, and knowing that their may be problems in the design. I happen to be one of those people... That's how I ended up in the Test world... But that's my day job. With my mooney, I like reliable- the only way to earn that rating is by proving it over time. No new box can claim reliability until it's seen the test of time... And I'm willing to bet that most will be see modifications to the original design along the way to achieve that reliability.

Spend what you will or get mad at the vendor, but the best way to ensure that your system is reliable and functional is to wait to see how other installations turn out, and give them time.

I seem to recall a quote "Never fly an "A" model of anything..." The same could be said for avionics.

Bottom line: I agree with Marauder: it's not if, it's when these systems fail, and ultimately, it's how the vendor stands behind their product that matters.