Retracting flaps after touchdown

[carusoam]

Significant weight difference from your other experience?

Go fly a long body. A few hundred pounds different, when it lands, it is solid...

A 2,000' runway does not leave extra room for, error, mistakes, thinking, mind changing...

That's extra pressure to perform. All the time.

The challenge for me is take-off, at Vr I have probably used more than half the runway (GMTW). Not a lot of time to identify, decide and act on any problem before going off the end... Doing it a few times a year, lightly loaded is OK.

You have signed up for more challenges than most others have. IMSAFE is a good self checklist for that...

At least you have covered the issues out in the open. Great conversation...!

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

The POH for a 77C...

Page 3-24

On final, trim the aircraft to 80mph

Short field technique, ends with...

For maximum breaking effect, raise the flaps and apply back pressure on the control wheel as you apply brakes.

..................

If you need maximum braking in your every day life, that seems to be the way to do it...

This comes from the most recent C POH. And it is still missing performance charts found for the later mids and longs...

It doesn't detail what happens when a valve gets stuck. Or a brake line goes mushy...

Just a lot of eggs in one really old basket,

-a-

[Andy95W]

Is 75 mph too fast? In a C with two people and bags? (I use mph ... those are the big numbers on the a/s indicator I can see easily)

Vso is 57 mph at gross weight, so 1.3Vso is 74 mph. Looks like you're right on. When I'm by myself, I fly 65-70 mph on short final and it does nice- but I still have to hold it off for a bit to touch down right at the stall warning.

[aaronk25]

Is 75 mph too fast? In a C with two people and bags? (I use mph ... those are the big numbers on the a/s indicator I can see easily)

I cross the fence at 75mph in my J but mains hit the ground at 55mph-58mph in the flare. There are a lot or good ways to land the plane but I'd find the airspeed that works for you where once crossing the fence you can feel the angle of attack increasing and the plane starting to developed a nice sink rate even with a slight bit of nose up. Hard to describe, but if the plane is flying really flat and still hooked up hard try slowing up a few mph and try again. Absolutes are hard to pin down to a couple mph when comparing different planes as weights are different (my J probably needs 3mph faster due to weight) as well as our aging airspeed indicators.

[aaronk25]

Almost impossible on our shorter model planes to have a tail strike...not so on the long bodies. So try holding it off and getting the nose up a bit in the flare which will lower your landing speed even more.

This is a pic of me in my J landing at OSH at about 6' agl. You can almost see the sink rate and notice the slight nose up condition if you configure your plane like this and it stops sinking, your going to fast....have fun with it and keep us informed.

[Ned Gravel]

Not a Rocket owner, but ...

I retract the flaps immediately after touchdown to help dump the lift off the wings. My Mooney specific instructor taught that from the first landing.

+ 1

Sent from my iPad

[ArtVandelay]

In the 1970 M20C Ranger POH it says:

"For maximum braking effect, raise the flaps and apply back pressure on the control wheel as you apply brakes. Do not skid the main wheels, as doing so will reduce braking effectiveness and damage the tires."

BTW, the 1970 M20C had electric landing gear, not the Johnson Bar.

M20J has in all caps: retract after clearing the runway.

[Andy95W]

Still working on that "holding it off a bit" ...

Amazing when we had the plane "level" on jack stands to hang the weighted string for the nose gear spacer SB ... Just how TELLING that attitude is! Don Maxwell mentions that in his article. "Hold it off and get that nose up" is what I am telling myself each landing nowadays!

I teach some in Mooneys and my suggestion is to try practicing no-flap landings and 80 - 85 mph on final (nice long runway, of course). To hold that speed, particularly 80 on short final, you'll have to have the nose high. Once in ground effect, and without the extra drag, Mooneys don't like to stop flying until the speed is right. Just keep holding it off the ground and it will touchdown when it's done flying. This will give you a really good feel and sight picture of landing nose high.

If you try to force it on, you can wheelbarrow (mains off the ground, nose on) or if it turns into a bounce you can porpoise (bouncing mains/nose/mains/nose). Needless to say, go around and try again.

My favorite (and softest) landings are still 2 pumps/ 15 degrees/ takeoff flaps.

Dang. Now I feel like going out to practice some myself.

[FlyDave]

Don Kaye teaches using an over-the-fence approach reference speed and reducing that by 5 KIAS for each 300 lbs. under gross.

He doesn't list a reference for the C but for the E it's 78 KIAS & J it's 72 KIAS.

I use 80 KIAS in the M and reduce accordingly and it works pretty well. But I still dump the flaps after touchdown and roll out a few exits. I think a lot of braking puts a fair amount of unnecessary stresses on entire airframe. Also, I don't like changing tires and brakes every 75 hours.

[ArtVandelay]

For those that retract flaps, next time you go out to do some pattern work, try it both ways and note your landing distances, I be curious if stopping distances are significantly different.

[midlifeflyer]

The theory is downright simple. Even if one thinks the risk of accidentally raising the gear is low, why do something so completely unnecessary to a normal landing instead of deferring it to after leaving the runway?

[carusoam]

Reviewing the current issues...

(1) mooney recommends dumping the flaps (in some cases) to improve stopping distances.

(2) most owners agree, the human brain has some faults that allow for gear up landings using this short field technique.

(3) it is a risk / reward situation. Reward, using a short strip near home. Risk, increased wear, possible GUs

(4) Daver is describing a squirrelyness. That I am not hearing from other pilots...

From other threads...

(5) there are apps you can use to determine stopping distance. Your plane, your skills at your field... If you use the more risky technique, at least measure (reliably) what it is doing for you.

That being said...

Short field practices in both the C and R can be fun. Neither displayed a squirrelyness....

The following question come to mind...

What wear are you looking to measure to determine if there is a solution....?

The nose wheel truss has some known wear issues?

What technique can be used to improve stability while pressing the brakes to the max?

Daver, am I on target?

Best regards,

-a-

[WardHolbrook]

Wonder what Mooneyspace member did did that . Seriously guys were flying airplanes that have to stall at or under 61kts and unless your landing on 1700ft fields, let's not make it more complicated than it is. If it's a short field slow the plane up more than normal on final and "drag it in on the prop" and if done right when you cut the power it should set down very firmly on the mains. All these other stupid human tricks in the cockpits don't make pilots that are flying slow stalling GA planes look like Learjet drivers. There isn't any large spoilers on mooneys because we don't need them. This mix up cost me months of loss of use and my insurance company 60k. Yes I grabbed the gear switch instead of the flap switch, yes it was me. I put on 300hours a year in my mooney, maybe those that start flipping switches immediately after landing are better pilots than me....maybe not but the point is, don't add risk if the return isn't needed. Btw I dropped into a 1700ft strip without raising the flaps. Be a better pilot and control speed better and there is no need for stupid human tricks in the cockpit.

I've been a CFI for a very long time. The biggest error I see Mooney pilots consistently make is with airspeed control. There is a tendency to fly way too fast in the pattern and crossing the fence. This causes many guys to start compensating for one poor technique with one or two other poor techniques. It's just that simple. If you are one of "those guys", go find a GOOD Mooney CFI and fly enough patterns with him/her until you can break the old habits and form the proper new ones.  

[aaronk25]

Reviewing the current issues...

(1) mooney recommends dumping the flaps (in some cases) to improve stopping distances.

(2) most owners agree, the human brain has some faults that allow for gear up landings using this short field technique.

(3) it is a risk / reward situation. Reward, using a short strip near home. Risk, increased wear, possible GUs

(4) Daver is describing a squirrelyness. That I am not hearing from other pilots...

From other threads...

(5) there are apps you can use to determine stopping distance. Your plane, your skills at your field... If you use the more risky technique, at least measure (reliably) what it is doing for you.

That being said...

Short field practices in both the C and R can be fun. Neither displayed a squirrelyness....

The following question come to mind...

What wear are you looking to measure to determine if there is a solution....?

The nose wheel truss has some known wear issues?

What technique can be used to improve stability while pressing the brakes to the max?

Daver, am I on target?

Best regards,

-a-

I am always in awe of how elegantly you summarize thoughts and facts......especially in previous heated discussions on other threads.

Aaron

[scottfromiowa]

Don Kaye teaches using an over-the-fence approach reference speed and reducing that by 5 KIAS for each 300 lbs. under gross.

He doesn't list a reference for the C but for the E it's 78 KIAS & J it's 72 KIAS.

I use 80 KIAS in the M and reduce accordingly and it works pretty well. But I still dump the flaps after touchdown and roll out a few exits. I think a lot of braking puts a fair amount of unnecessary stresses on entire airframe. Also, I don't like changing tires and brakes every 75 hours.

I flat disagree with 78 knots in an E over the fence.

[scottfromiowa]

I also think that if you are reaching for the Johnson bar instead of the flap detent you need to consider a different hobby.

[Hank]

For my C, it's 75 MPH over then fence, less 5 per 300 lbs under gross. Can't imagine that putting in a more powerful engine will raise approach speed by 15 mph.

I could believe 78 MPH for an E. Maybe.

[Andy95W]

I flat disagree with 78 knots in an E over the fence.

Probably a typo. 74 MPH is 1.3 x Vso, so he probably meant 78 MPH.

[WardHolbrook]

All of this "guessing" at the appropriate approach speed goes away with an AoA. Remember a stall is based upon a specific, constant angle of attack regardless of aircraft weight, not a specific airspeed. I don't own a Mooney (yet), when I do, it will have one on the glareshield. 

[gsxrpilot]

I don't understand why landing a Mooney seems to be such a complicated event.  I also don't know how one would do anything in the cockpit without making a positive decision to do so?  I generally raise the flaps immediately on touchdown, turn off the fuel pump, and flick the radio to ground all before reaching the taxiway.  This is also while applying full back pressure on the yoke for aerodynamic breaking as well. None of it is complicated and all are easily done positively and with deliberate action.  

 

I couldn't actually tell you what speed I land at, unless I'm in formation and then it's 90.  But then we never use flaps and the runway is very long.

 

Anyway, it works for me.

[Andy95W]

Oh, Paul, now you're just going to get everybody riled up again.

This thread almost got as bad as the "Flaps on Takeoff" discussions.

BTW, did you buy the Quiet Technologies Halo headset? I met you by the booth on Monday/Tuesday of Oshkosh. I absolutely LOVE my new Halo, quieter than my Lightspeed ANR.

[WardHolbrook]

I don't understand why landing a Mooney seems to be such a complicated event.  I also don't know how one would do anything in the cockpit without making a positive decision to do so?  I generally raise the flaps immediately on touchdown, turn off the fuel pump, and flick the radio to ground all before reaching the taxiway.  This is also while applying full back pressure on the yoke for aerodynamic breaking as well. None of it is complicated and all are easily done positively and with deliberate action.  

 

I couldn't actually tell you what speed I land at, unless I'm in formation and then it's 90.  But then we never use flaps and the runway is very long.

 

Anyway, it works for me.

Aerodynamic braking? What are you flying an F-15? 

 

A couple of serious questions what is the need for aerodynamic braking in a Mooney and just how efficient is it? I've flown a Lear that had a drag chute. Below about 70 knots it's effect was negligible. Left to it's own devices, a Mooney will roll to a stop, without touching the brakes, within the confines of most of the runways that most of us use most of the time. In order to get any meaningful amount of aerodynamic braking, you've got to be going fast enough to hold the nose off, way off, the runway. Go watch the boys in the Air Force do it. Merely pulling back on the yoke during rollout is going to have little, if any, effect. I'd bet the difference would be best measured in feet, if not inches. I don't want to come across as picking on you, but it just might be that you are one of those guys I was talking about. Sometimes, it really is better (and safer) just to sit on your hands for a while. A Mooney is a model of efficiency. Some Mooney pilots are anything but. You don't need to be doing something just to be doing something. Oh well, sorry about that, I'll takeoff my CFI hat and climb down from my soapbox. 

[bonal]

For me it's 80mph fence 75 numbers flaps up after clear of the runway I don't even use the brakes unless CT request a quick exit.

There that should end this thread.

[scottfromiowa]

I don't understand why landing a Mooney seems to be such a complicated event.  I also don't know how one would do anything in the cockpit without making a positive decision to do so?  I generally raise the flaps immediately on touchdown, turn off the fuel pump, and flick the radio to ground all before reaching the taxiway.  This is also while applying full back pressure on the yoke for aerodynamic breaking as well. None of it is complicated and all are easily done positively and with deliberate action.  

 

I couldn't actually tell you what speed I land at, unless I'm in formation and then it's 90.  But then we never use flaps and the runway is very long.

 

Anyway, it works for me.

Rocket is wrong. New pilots that want to land their short body Mooney safely...properly...90 whether MPH OR KNOTS is WAY too fast.

[PTK]

100 KIAS in the pattern works well for me. I shoot for 80 KIAS on final and 1.2 stall speeds over the numbers. That's 60 KIAS full flaps and 70 KIAS flaps up. I add a few knots for weight if needed.

I don't touch anything until clear of and off the runway.