AOA installation

[fantom]

I wasn't that interested in buying one until the dent came out so adamantly against it, so count me in if you need one more to get to ten.

[M016576]

I repectfully disagree with each and every paragraph you wrote above.

-Accident statistics are nice, but in purchasing an AOA I was interested in me and not the broader pilot community. I absolutely believe that an AOA is a safety enhancing piece of equipment in MY hands. It is also a performance enhancing piece of equipment.

-Obviously if the hapless pilot is unaware, ignoring asi and also ignoring aoa and getting slow....well cross your fingers. On the other hand, most of the pilots here who are thoughtfully considering an aoa are already aware of their air speed, and most about what is aoa.

-"A healthy respect for airspeed on asi on approach" - that is the problem - buffer your approach speed with a safety margin, and come a little light and you might be faster than you think. This is not good for performance landings.

-It is not to correct screw ups - it is to HELP nail the approach speed each and every time. Know that your stall speed changes with weight. Yes, you can use a formula to correct for weight but it is easier and more comforting to see your reserve lift on an instrument.

-An audible call out (preferably in English) can catch the attention of a hapless pilot (me?) - I am very very aware of my asi at all times in the runway environment, through all stages of landing sequence - but it only takes once, one bad day, one lost minute of attention, for the airspeed to decay in a dangerous way - tell me an aoa is not helpful. Statistics aside, and the pilot population aside, I am convinced it is a good piece of safety equipment in THIS pilot's hands, for this use alone.

-"I'm not referring to a jetliner or landing on a carrier at night or aerobatics. There an AOA ind may be essential. But for us it seems the ASI is more essential." I disagree - if I had to choose one in the runway environment, asi or aoa, I would choose aoa. You can fly aoa to a good landing. An asi you need to estimate good speeds, and correct for weight and so forth. Obviously you can use either and the asi has been used for years, mostly for engineering nonavailibility of an aoa reasons, but the aoa is a more direct. In cruise flight, for other aeronautical decision making reasons you need an asi (an aoa will not helo you keep out of vne or vno....)

-"Some of us have a problem flying slow not flying fast!" - how is that arguing against an aoa? My experience is that an aoa has helped me fly slow more accurately. Mind you, my physical skills of pitching the airplane is spot on and has been for years - I can easily fly a chosen indicated airspeed +/- 0.5kts on a smooth day, but an aoa helps me accurately and confdently choose a good airspeed more accurately than a general formula like 1.3 Vso (for a Vso that is changing with weight), and remembering that you do not fly 1.3Vso through the entire sequence but it is just a suggestion and does not help to know how much you can slow as you get closer and closer to the numbers. I thought I was doing pretty well, but it turns out that I was going a bit too fast ... always, for fear of going a bit too slow.

I don't understand the argument against an AOA really. Don't buy one, I get that you don't want one. But that doesn't make it irrelevant in many pilots hands. I do find it especially interesting that our air force f15 pilot on the formum (and who was a former navy carrier based f18 pilot), is carefully considering to buy one for his personal mooney. He is much more physically skilled as a pilot, more knowledgable as he eats drinks and breaths flying for a living and as an air force instructor pilot, and he is undoubtably eons more trained than I am, and he indicates that it is useful equipment for him in his own personal hands as well. This is really not bandaid half bakes equipment as your post suggests. It is the real deal.

Don't try it if you aren't interested, fine, but try it before you knock it.

What he said.

I was going to go on another diatribe about why AOA is relevant and important... Why an AOA indicator is a precise tool and an ASI is a "workaround" but Erik beat me to the punch.

PTK- until you try and understand what an AOA indicator brings to the table, I wouldn't show it such flagrant disrespect. Landing on a carrier, or landing on a dirt strip in a 180: stall is stall, and the only REAL way to know where that occurs is based on AoA of your airfoil. Airspeed is, and will always be, just an estimation.... Using airspeed to land your airplane is like cutting butter with a chain saw- not precise.

Edit- I wouldn't try to tell you to ditch your x-rays and bite wings because they are a band aid to find cavities.... Why would you argue that an AOA indicator is a band aid for safe flight? Seriously, learn to fly one, you'll be convinced that it's as valuable in indicating where stall lives FOR YOUR WEIGHT and WING (dings and all) as an X-Ray of your patient's mouth is for finding weak dentin.., or whatever that stuff is that the dentist keeps telling me to try to get me to floss more...

[PTK]

I don't land my Mooney on aircraft carriers! And last time I checked there wasn't a tail-hook mod available!

 

But I'll keep looking!

 

No worries for those unsuspecting souls though. They'll crank it in to turn it back after they've overshot final and will go down with plenty of bang! The stall horn blaring along with their newly acquired gadget! Assuming, of course, they calibrated it properly.

 

And they thought that new gadget was going to save the day! They may as well've been tuning their XM radio!!!

[BobAustin]

Question for Rip or ?

 

From the videos I clearly see the probe and how it is mounted.  Understand that just running a wire back to the display is easier than tubing.

 

However what does the display look like ?  I saw a few LEDs peaking out of the Navion panel...does this mean you have to cut a rectangular hole in the panel to mount it.

 

Obviously 355 is a steal...at that price.

[Hank]

I'm interested, too, but need to catch up to my IA who doesn't do email. He's under 40, too . . .

[rq3]

Question for Rip or ?

 

From the videos I clearly see the probe and how it is mounted.  Understand that just running a wire back to the display is easier than tubing.

 

However what does the display look like ?  I saw a few LEDs peaking out of the Navion panel...does this mean you have to cut a rectangular hole in the panel to mount it.

 

Obviously 355 is a steal...at that price.

Hi Bob

Your best bet is to download the installation manual here:

http://www.ackemma.com/tech.html

Click on the "CYA Installation and Operation Manual" link at the top of the page.

Basically, you can put the display anywhere you want.

David may want to weigh in on the display. It's really hard to get a video or photo of an LED display to look like it does in real life, but they are much more intense than you see in any video. They also auto-dim, so that you're not overwhelmed during night flight.

Hope this helps!

Rip

[fantom]

 

And they thought that new gadget was going to save the day.....

 

Bet ya that AOA gadget saved Lea's evening:  www.youtube.com/embed/dG7fiKTKGwI?feature=player_detailpage

 

Being so adamant and negative about items you have zero experience amazes me. Must be the happy gas

[David Mazer]

I have a short video that shows the start up sequence of the display.  I haven't been able to upload it but if you email me, I'll be happy to email it back.  I just don't want to post it on youtube.  I've mounted the unit in a small aluminum box I made and velcroed it to the glare shield.  Works great.  You can see pics of that on the CYA-100 thread I started some time ago.

[PTK]

I am adamant about training. Yes I am.

We don't have an instrumentation problem. We have a huge training problem.

If a pilot lacks the skills and presence of mind to avoid getting in a stall spin jam by preventing it, there's no gadget that will save him. He is done.

Proper airspeed control on approach is a lot more crucial than another gadget.

To argue against more pilot training is extremely naive at best.

[M016576]

I am adamant about training. Yes I am.

We don't have an instrumentation problem. We have a huge training problem.

If a pilot lacks the skills and presence of mind to avoid getting in a stall spin jam by preventing it, there's no gadget that will save him. He is done.

Proper airspeed control on approach is a lot more crucial than another gadget.

To argue against more pilot training is extremely naive at best.

You can control your airspeed all you want.... The wing only cares about your AOA.

I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

You don't know what airspeed your aircraft will stall at. Ever. But. If you have an AOA indicator, you know exactly where your aircraft will stall. Every day. For every weight. For every density altitude. For every power setting. For every angle of bank.

Why? Because it's the same number... Every time. No matter what.

Instead we use asi's because as a marketing tool in the 30's and 40's the industry didn't believe that "us common folk" would be able to understand something as complex as AOA. And you calculate numbers based off of inaccurate weight estimates (when was your last Weight and balance, PTK?). And the FAA built these huge box patterns so we wouldn't die in the approach turn with our estimated air speeds.

YouTube a daytime carrier approach turn. Or better yet, fly out here to oregon and I'll show you an approach turn flown off of AOA alone. You won't believe how much more efficient it is! It's a continuous 180 descending turn... But it's only safely possible by either A) adding way too much airspeed to be workable on a short runway, or having an AOA gauge to fly.

I'm sure you land your mooney just fine at your home field. How are your landings at airports at higher density altitudes? Lower density altitudes? Heavy weight? Are they all beautiful greasers, or does one ever "sneak up on you?" Have you ever wondered why?

It's your decision, but I wouldn't knock an AOA indicator just because you don't have one and don't understand it.

I do agree with you that training is most important, but if you have the money: buy the AOA gauge, then get the training to use it: your landings, and more importantly, your understanding of the flight envelope will improve dramatically.

[Hank]

Peter, you just don't get it. The AOA Indicator is the correct airspeed for this moment, at your airplane's exact weight right this second, at this bank angle and attitude. Your POH gives stall speeds fir one weight (gross), and several configurations and bank angles. Put it as in the video, beside your AI, and look at both of them in a glance. The AOA will let you approach as close to perfect airspeed as you want. The AI lets you approach at as close of an airspeed to what you think you should be, just don't think too slow or bank too steep.

[fantom]

To argue against more pilot training is extremely naive at best.

 

Nobody is, and one doesn't preclude the other. You're beginning to worry me, Pete.

[Marauder]

Nobody is, and one doesn't preclude the other. You're beginning to worry me, Pete.

Actually you bring up a good point Gary. Can someone take Pete out on a training flight and train him on an AoA indicator? He believes in training, here is a chance to get some more...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[wishboneash]

I agree with PTK in many of his points. I think it would an interesting instrument to have and if you would like to push the envelope it could turn out to be useful. However, in my 20+ years of flying I haven't needed it. When in trouble, relax back pressure/push the nose down and use bank instead of aileron to correct for a turn to final. I guess with this approach to flying you will not kill yourself, but you will never make the most "efficient" turn and land at the lowest airspeed. Do you need to? Perhaps in some rare cases into a difficult airport. Even then, if you control airspeed and descent rate you will do fine knowing all your parameters. There is also the likelihood with the AoA indicator you might be tempted to push the envelope to the point that a gust can stall your plane and you don't have time to react because you are basically flying on the edge with this instrument all the time. It's like the IFR pilot, he has a more difficult go/no-go choice since he can fly into weather but his plane/pilot's capabilities may not be up to it. He/she can get into trouble because the limits are difficult to ascertain before the flight. The VFR pilot simply knows he/she cannot fly if the weather minimums on the ATIS/AWOS don't meet VFR criteria. Having said all this, I might still get this instrument since it is cheap enough and offers some interesting insights of the flight envelope of my plane. However, I probably won't be looking at it much except as a novelty item/gadget geek. So count me in.

[David Mazer]

Wishboneash, I think your comments that less precise information leads to better decision making isn't one I can really accept.  I also think your IFR/VFR analogy isn't the best considering the number of VFR to IMC accidents that occur every year.  I'm glad your in though since I'm certain once you have it and test it at a safe altitude, as I did, you'll find it very useful.

[David Mazer]

Now in (assuming all questions are answered):

Fantom, Hank, BobAustin, Marauder and mikerocosm. 

 

Maybe: DaV8or?

 

5 or 6 in with 4 or 5 to go.

[Marauder]

Just an update on the "letter" and my IA; he and I have both been busy and haven't been able to connect on the installation materials I sent him. I would like to get a copy of the letter and his reassurances this is indeed a logbook entry only item before I commit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[wishboneash]

Now in (assuming all questions are answered):

Fantom, Hank, BobAustin, Marauder and mikerocosm.

Maybe: DaV8or?

5 or 6 in with 4 or 5 to go.

You forgot me. I am in as well. It would be nice to see the letter Marauder was referring to though before the group goes ahead as an added reassurance. Thanks.

[fantom]

You forgot me. I am in as well. It would be nice to see the letter Marauder was referring to though before the group goes ahead as an added reassurance. Thanks.

Good for you, wishboneash! That was a well reasoned and thought out post you had about possible AOA limitations. Unlike the knee jerk hysterics of our resident yankee dent Oh, and we do need some decent pictures of what the indicator looks like on some panels.

[wishboneash]

Wishboneash, I think your comments that less precise information leads to better decision making isn't one I can really accept.  I also think your IFR/VFR analogy isn't the best considering the number of VFR to IMC accidents that occur every year.  I'm glad your in though since I'm certain once you have it and test it at a safe altitude, as I did, you'll find it very useful.

 

I am not saying having more precise information will not lead to better decision making. It could however lead to complacency and may make *some* pilots operate closer to the edge of stall/spin because of inherent trust in the instrument (and not looking at the ASI). The example about gusts is a valid one. The issue with VFR into IMC is an issue of pilot proficiency and for most cases trying to press on in IMC instead of making an immediate 180. I can't think of too many situations where weather has closed in both in front of you and behind you! If that happened, the initial weather briefing was poor to non-existent. The same with VFR pilots who have GPSs and getting so reliant on it that they have forgotten basic pilotage skills. Having more precise information can lull one into a false security some times.

[aviatoreb]

Please add my name David t the list to purchase one.  Its not for my airplane N10933 since I already have one (of a different model), but it is for the airplane in the hangar right next to mine, a friends plane which I frequently fly in.

[WardHolbrook]

I've been flying with AoA systems for most of my career. They do NOT give me a false sense of security. They do NOT let me foolishly fly closer to the edge of the performance envelope and I believe that they are NOT a waste of money.

 

A properly calibrated AoA indicator simply tells a pilot absolutely and without question where one edge of the envelope is. Period. It's that simple, but the consequences of having that knowledge can indeed be game changing. If you don't stall you can spin. If you don't stall and don't spin you won't be involved in a stall/spin accident. Seeing that stall spin accidents are still one of the major pilot killers I think that's a good thing myself. Now I suppose that there are some here who say that they are good pilots and would never screw up a pattern so bad that they'd spin one in. I hope so, however I've known some very good pilots who have died in stall spin accidents. It's too late now, but I'm sure that if I would have asked them about their personal chances of dieing in a stall/spin accident they would have said no way.

 

There are other uses for AOA systems. How many of you have ever lost your airspeed indicators in flight? I know I have on 3 or 4 occasions over my career. The first time it happened, I was a private pilot with about 200 hours and I'll be honest with you guys, it was one of the most uncomfortable landings I have ever made. I did as I was trained and it went well, but I wasn't comfortable. The last time I had a ASI failure was back a few years ago (pre-RVSM) in a Lear with a single Air Data Computer. The computer went tango uniform and all we had were dual uncompensated ASIs and our AoA. I didn't even look at the airspeed indicators, having the AOA system made the entire event a total non-event.

 

Several years ago I spent two weeks flying with a Gulfstream G100 with a recently retired factory certification test pilot. We were using him to fill-in for some guys on vacation. It was a real eye opener. Prior to the time I spend with him I would have told you that the AoA system was only good for stall avoidance and the recognition of 1.3 Vso. Flying with him, I learned about using it to determine best long-range cruise, holding speeds several  pertinent one-engine inoperative speeds and a few other misc. speeds as well. It did become a game changer for me.  

 

Oh well, are they absolutely necessary? Of course not. But they can be very useful. AoA systems are no different than any other optional device or system you might have on your Mooney. Not every pilot will ever see the need for turbocharging, FIKI, WAAS, speedbrakes, oxygen, etc. but for those who know how those systems work and understand how to properly employ them, they only add to the safety and utility of their airplanes. An AoA system is no different. And for those who don't, then they are all unnecessary expenses.   

[PTK]

What worries ME is that some are encouraging pilots to go buy a gadget, calibrate it himself, and entrust to it the pushing of the envelope, of what happens to be the most fatal maneuver for GA! Stall/spins in the pattern. (These statistics according to the FAA and AOPA.)

Instead we need to be promoting education and training. For the purposes of this discussion, training in slow flight. How do we perform slow flight maneuvers? Not with the stall horn screaming of course, but on the edge of stall buffet.

And once we get good at this the airplane can be controlled much closer to the edge of the envelope without any gadget. Arguably, without even an ASI!

We shouldn't confuse a "make believe" AOA gadget with a true AOA system in a fighter jet landing on an aircraft carrier or a transport jet. The aerodynamics are very different than ours and they have TRUE AOA systems.

Consider weight. At what fraction of their t/o weight do they routinely land compared to us? We're 80 or 90% (?) They're more like 50%!

And for those die-hard fans of these "gadgets" try calling the FAA and ask them if they'll let you put one in without an STC!

Better yet call the FSDO and ask them for a field approval!

If you're using AOA gadgets to manage airspeed, as some have suggested, you are by definition using it as primary.

"The system is non-required and used in an advisory or supplementary manner. The system will not be used in lieu of the airspeed indicator or aircraft stall warning system. No operational credit may be taken for the installation, such as reduced stall speeds, reduced approach speeds, reduced takeoff or landing distances, etc.

..accuracy of indication of stall must coincide with stall horn or be conservative (indicate stall at a higher airspeed) as compared to existing stall warning devices."

...FAA

[DonMuncy]

What is the difference between an AOA gadget and a true AOA.

[Hank]

Only the dentist knows . . . . . :-)