Check your landing gear closely!!!

[Dale Logsdon]

mooneys are not for everyone, just like flying is not for everyone. stalls from 6 foot should not happen.....ever!

[Marauder]

Original posters previous post.

I'd like to introduce myself as a proud new owner of a 1963 Mooney M20C that I recently purchased from a great seller in TX.

I flew to TX, did the pre-inspection of the plane and all log books, took a test flight and had the owner do three landings to allow me to get a feel for the plane, then I jumped in the driver seat and did two excellent landings, even greased the 2nd one! I owe all the reading I've done on this site to prepare me for the Johnson Bar, Manual flaps (love both of them over electric now) and approach pattern speeds. I rounded out on final at 80 mph and the Mooney just sat down on the runway nicely, no floating.

After the paperwork was complete, I jumped in and headed straight for MS to visit family and again, great landings. Flights from MS to TN with a proud mother, from TN to MS with mother, sister and niece, then back to TN with sister and niece, then off to VA for its home airport. All landings were great except for VA when the ATIS was down. Luckily some g1000 Cessna's were in the pattern; unlucky, reported 18kt direct crosswinds. My first landing I had to immediately reject due I had come in full flaps. As I got back into the pattern, I remembered the reading material stating no flaps for high winds and on the 2nd attempt, I came in with no flaps, less power but did stall the airplane about 6' off the runway to make for a hard hit. The plane did not bounce, just kept on rolling. Lesson learned!!!

I'm sure this might spark controversy but I'll throw it out there anyway (dangle the hook!). I finished my pilot's license in Dec 2012 and went straight into IFR training in Jan 2013. Yup. I got complex certified on 30 Mar 2013 and two weeks later, at 68 hours of flying time, I bought a Mooney and after 2 greased landings (yes, i was nervous as hell until that first touchdown) I was on my way across country, flying this amazing aircraft home. I flew for a total of 14.3 hours over the weekend to arrive at KCPK with 83 hours under my belt, and absolute passion for the planes' capabilities and a better understanding of my piloting skills. I landed at KCPK under 18kt direct cross winds and had to reject the first landing becuase I had put in full flaps. I never hesitated to take off when I realized I was being pushed off the runway. For the second landing, all the hours of reading about flying a mooney kicked in and I came in no flaps, though she did stall 6' off the runway and set down hard enough to rattle my cage (humility as a pilot is an important attribute in my mind).

I accredit my landings, flying and understanding of the mooney's capabilities to about 30 hours online, reading every aspect of managing the aircraft on pre-flight, climb, cruise, descent (500 fpm to keep from shock cooling aircraft) and landing (BCGUMPS for me!). I also have a full flight simulator at home with 3 screens and complete complex flight controls where I spent no less than 10 hours practicing takeoff and landing at every airport I would hit on my cross country.

Hmmm... Maybe he should buy a Cirrus...

[mike_elliott]

Original posters previous post.

 

I'd like to introduce myself as a proud new owner of a 1963 Mooney M20C that I recently purchased from a great seller in TX.

 

I flew to TX, did the pre-inspection of the plane and all log books, took a test flight and had the owner do three landings to allow me to get a feel for the plane, then I jumped in the driver seat and did two excellent landings, even greased the 2nd one!  I owe all the reading I've done on this site to prepare me for the Johnson Bar, Manual flaps (love both of them over electric now) and approach pattern speeds.  I rounded out on final at 80 mph and the Mooney just sat down on the runway nicely, no floating.

 

After the paperwork was complete, I jumped in and headed straight for MS to visit family and again, great landings.  Flights from MS to TN with a proud mother, from TN to MS with mother, sister and niece, then back to TN with sister and niece, then off to VA for its home airport.  All landings were great except for VA when the ATIS was down.  Luckily some g1000 Cessna's were in the pattern; unlucky, reported 18kt direct crosswinds.  My first landing I had to immediately reject due I had come in full flaps.  As I got back into the pattern, I remembered the reading material stating no flaps for high winds and on the 2nd attempt, I came in with no flaps, less power but did stall the airplane about 6' off the runway to make for a hard hit.  The plane did not bounce, just kept on rolling.  Lesson learned!!!

I'm sure this might spark controversy but I'll throw it out there anyway (dangle the hook!).  I finished my pilot's license in Dec 2012 and went straight into IFR training in Jan 2013.  Yup.  I got complex certified on 30 Mar 2013 and two weeks later, at 68 hours of flying time, I bought a Mooney and after 2 greased landings (yes, i was nervous as hell until that first touchdown) I was on my way across country, flying this amazing aircraft home.  I flew for a total of 14.3 hours over the weekend to arrive at KCPK with 83 hours under my belt, and absolute passion for the planes' capabilities and a better understanding of my piloting skills.  I landed at KCPK under 18kt direct cross winds and had to reject the first landing becuase I had put in full flaps.  I never hesitated to take off when I realized I was being pushed off the runway.  For the second landing, all the hours of reading about flying a mooney kicked in and I came in no flaps, though she did stall 6' off the runway and set down hard enough to rattle my cage (humility as a pilot is an important attribute in my mind).

 

I accredit my landings, flying and understanding of the mooney's capabilities to about 30 hours online, reading every aspect of managing the aircraft on pre-flight, climb, cruise, descent (500 fpm to keep from shock cooling aircraft) and landing (BCGUMPS for me!).  I also have a full flight simulator at home with 3 screens and complete complex flight controls where I spent no less than 10 hours practicing takeoff and landing at every airport I would hit on my cross country.

 

[mike_elliott]

"For the second landing, all the hours of reading about flying a mooney kicked in and I came in no flaps, though she did stall 6' off the runway and set down hard enough to rattle my cage (humility as a pilot is an important attribute in my mind)."

"I accredit my landings, flying and understanding of the mooney's capabilities to about 30 hours online, reading every aspect of managing the aircraft on pre-flight, climb, cruise, descent (500 fpm to keep from shock cooling aircraft) and landing (BCGUMPS for me!). I also have a full flight simulator at home with 3 screens and complete complex flight controls where I spent no less than 10 hours practicing takeoff and landing at every airport I would hit on my cross country."

.

And if you spent about 10 hours with the likes of Don Kaye or Bruce Jaeger or Parker Woodruff, you just might not have subjected that gear to what sounds like a terrific G load nor flaired so high. Less than $500 in instruction usually pays large dividends.

[MyNameIsNobody]

The horror...Mooney gear collapses left and right since his incidents...Surprised there is an insurance carrier that will write them, pilots that will fly them...Fear the Mooney gear failure.

Poor Piper...His gear are probably getting hammered into submission as we speak.

[ryoder]

Thanks for digging up this thread. Good read.

[RobertGary1]

Properly used that steel truss should have a gentle life. We don't actually land on it but rather set the nose down after landing.

[nels]

I haven't read all the responses so maybe this question has already been answered. If the Johnson bar is not fully engaged and locked in the gear down position and the gear is down and over center so it tries to remain there on its own without the lock as insurance...can the front gear collapse separate from the main gear? If so, I can visualize the front gear being vulnerable as it's direction of retract is in line with the direction of taxi where that is not the case for the wing landing gear.

[orionflt]

the gear is all interlinked so if one folds they all do unless there is a break in the linkage.

 

Brian

[DXB]

Properly used that steel truss should have a gentle life. We don't actually land on it but rather set the nose down after landing.

Interesting and mysterious thread- would love to know what actually happened to the guy's nose gear. Reading it made me relive the half dozen or so landings I've had so far in my M20C that I felt were regrettably sloppy or hard (I think orionfit above was lucky enough to witness one of them).  Since training, I've made a habit of noting such landings, along with my suspected error, in the comment section of my log book. Every single one of these crappy landings still touched on the mains first, and so they took the brunt of the abuse.  Does it really seem likely that the guy was in the habit of hitting hard on the nose gear? I'd think this would really get your attention, as well as lead to more immediate disaster. Also I'd think corrosion in the nose gear severe enough to have caused this would be pretty obvious visually after the fact.  Maybe he wasn't aware of the truss damage from towing issue?  The first point of failure that leads to the chain reaction of the damage from collapse should be evident.

 

Regardless, I'm gonna pay extra attention to holding the nose off after the mains touch going forward. And also create that laminated "DO NOT TOW" sign to clip to my nose gear that I've meaning make this weekend.

[Shadrach]

I found a .5" hairline crack in our nose truss back in 2008 along with a dent from an overzealous tug driver. The lack of specifics is what gets me. This guy never really explained what caused the failure. He never even stated whether the J-bar came out of the socket. If my mechanic said my nose gear "shattered", I would surely want to see it. A drop in for 6' doesn't help, if the gear had worn truss bushing, I can see that kind of abuse leading to a failure.

I'm not so sure this dude was ready for a Mooney. Probably better with something with non-retractable spring steel...

[N601RX]

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/12019-back-in-a-mooney/?hl=usafhaynes#entry149727

[DXB]

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/12019-back-in-a-mooney/?hl=usafhaynes#entry149727

Duly noted.  Common things being common, unrecognized truss damage seems very likely the answer.  I do preflight it carefully if at an FBO away from home.  Wondering if my sign for the nose gear should say "DO NOT TOW" or something along the lines of  "USE EXTREME CAUTION AND WIDE TURNS IF TOWING NECESSARY.  NOSE GEAR TRUSS SENSITIVE TO SEVERE DAMAGE."   What do others do? It could be a tough argument if I come back to find a minor-looking ding, which is actually significant.  Can I prove it wasn't there before?

[kellym]

The only way I can think of for the nose truss to "shatter" is corrosion. Usually the tower up through the shock disks. The area needs to be closely inspected when the shock disks get hard and need replacing. A collapse without the J bar coming out of socket is very rare.

Other than corrosion, about the only other weak point is where the truss can hit the frame if tow limits are exceeded, denting the tube frame. I've never seen one break from said dents, but it is an airworthiness issue.

If you are really concerned about the integrity of the nose gear, Lasar can supply rebuilt parts that will be better than new and cost a lot less.

While it is desirable and Lycoming's recommendation, and you want to keep the plane, you are only required (by AD) to inspect the crank gear in the accessory case, and replace the bolt for that gear. You can check around for a used serviceable prop. Those two items should save you at least $10K over a full engine teardown and a new prop. Remember that decision to total is negotiable.

Usually if cost of repair is less than 50-60% of insured value, insurance company will agree to pay for repairs. Of course if you can get full teardown without resulting a total, you should do the teardown

 

I apologize for not responding...I've been traveling around in my buddy's Piper 180.  It's slower but a very stable IFR platform with an excellent autopilot than can fly autopilot an ILS w/ glideslope.  Yes, I say this since my next plane will be a Piper 180.  Why?  I can no longer trust Mooney.  She's a fast plane but I do not trust the landing gear. 

 

The local mechanic moved my plane last Friday.  When he lifted the front of the plane, he took a look at the landing gear.  His words were "shattered".  The nose gear was broken in multiple places.  This is different from my last mooney where the control rods were broken in multiple places causing the nose and left main to collapse.  This time, the nose trusses were shattered in multiple spots causing the nose gear to fail while the mains stayed down and locked.

 

My opinion.  Anyone flying these beautiful aircraft should have the landing gear replaced.  Not checked, not inspected, simply replaced.  I personally feel that after having two aircraft landing gear collapse, it is a simple answer as to the cause...metal fatigue.  I think I'm the unfortunate owner of two separate planes experiencing metal fatigue so much that it is breaking.

 

Do I have hard landings?  No.

Do I check the Johnson bar on initial, final and after touchdown?  Yes...especially after first airplane had nose gear collapse.

 

I hope people gain an appreciation for how dangerous each situation could've been and how fortunate I feel that both collapses happened on a taxi for takeoff, not on landing or actual takeoff.

 

I appreciate this community for the insight to help me be a better pilot, but I'm now going to go find a piper 180 and then I'll save up for a Cessna 182 or a Cherokee Six.

 

thanks.

[kellym]

You will not find corrosion in the shock tower without taking the shock disks off. This should be a factor in deciding when to get new disks if you are in a wet climate. If the disks are still within spec after 15 yrs, do you really want to go that long without knowing the single piece of 4130 tubing taking all the forces of the disks and holding everything together.

Also I'd think corrosion in the nose gear severe enough to have caused this would be pretty obvious visually after the fact.  Maybe he wasn't aware of the truss damage from towing issue?  The first point of failure that leads to the chain reaction of the damage from collapse should be evident.

 

Regardless, I'm gonna pay extra attention to holding the nose off after the mains touch going forward. And also create that laminated "DO NOT TOW" sign to clip to my nose gear that I've meaning make this weekend.

[Guest]

I found a .5" hairline crack in our nose truss back in 2008 along with a dent from an overzealous tug driver.  The lack of specifics is what gets me.  This guy never really explained what caused the failure.  He never even stated whether the J-bar came out of the socket.  If my mechanic said my nose gear "shattered", I would surely want to see it.  A drop in for 6' doesn't help, if the gear had worn busing, I can see that kind of abuse leading to a failure.

 

I'm not so sure this dude was ready for a Mooney.  Probably better with something with non-retractable spring steel...

I think more flight training may be in order. Any airplane can be damage by poor flying technique.

Clarence

[Shadrach]

I think more flight training may be in order. Any airplane can be damage by poor flying technique.

Clarence

I do my best to get recurrencey training twice a year Clerance! ;-)

[MyNameIsNobody]

Not a fan of the blanket assessments made about the vintage Mooney Nose-gear. The "all should be replaced, not inspected"...advice based on two negative experiences that would be lightning strike odds to duplicate. The Mooney gear is simple and time-tested by a large fleet. Yes, our Mooney's are susceptible to towing induced damage. Yes, all welded steel has cycle/time limits. THAT is why you have an annual inspection and as a pilot/owner you inspect and maintain your systems.

There is something "off" about the scenarios. I want photos. Glad that he updated info stating that the two trusses were damaged by improper ground handling. I love not like the manual Johnson bar gear on my plane. I love not like the Mooney landing gear system. I have not seen a spate of nose gear collapses that are not pilot induced in vintage Mooney's...

[Shadrach]

I suspect this was rooted in a landing technique (or lackthereof) issue. If the gear in fact collapsed while the selector or J-bar was locked in the down position, then it was either abused on landing or improperly adjusted. The most common link in this situation is the person piloting both aircraft...

[Guest]

I do my best to get recurrencey training twice a year Clerance! ;-)

Not referring to you, but to the one with the double wrecked nose gear, most recently trying to land from 6 feet.

Clarence

[Shadrach]

Not referring to you, but to the one with the double wrecked nose gear, most recently trying to land from 6 feet.

Clarence

I know, I was kidding you. Grammar and context can be funny over the internets...

[jetdriven]

Yes, all welded steel has cycle/time limits. THAT is why you have an annual inspection and as a pilot/owner you inspect and maintain your systems.

There is something "off" about the scenarios. I want photos. Glad that he updated info stating that the two trusses were damaged by improper ground handling. I love not like the manual Johnson bar gear on my plane. I love not like the Mooney landing gear system. I have not seen a spate of nose gear collapses that are not pilot induced in vintage Mooney's...

Steel parts like the welded up 4130 steel tubes that make up a large part of Mooneys, or crankshafts, connecting rods and such have no life limit. The loading of the parts is below the yield strength. Otherwise they would have a published life limit.

[RobertGary1]

Steel parts like the welded up 4130 steel tubes that make up a large part of Mooneys, or crankshafts, connecting rods and such have no life limit. The loading of the parts is below the yield strength. Otherwise they would have a published life limit.

 

It seems likely that this guy mashed the nose wheel of both his Mooneys.

 

-Robert

[MyNameIsNobody]

Steel parts like the welded up 4130 steel tubes that make up a large part of Mooneys, or crankshafts, connecting rods and such have no life limit. The loading of the parts is below the yield strength. Otherwise they would have a published life limit.

O.K. gotcha. My point really was everything will eventually wear to failure with use/abuse. You need to inspect/maintain and minimize abuse to maximize life before repair/replacement. Nosegear do get used/abused to the point of failure. That was my point Byron. Thank you for the clarification on a formal "life limit".

[RobertGary1]

But the nose gear has a pretty easy life unless it suffers from bad pilot technique. Typically the nose wheel isn't lowered until the weight of the plane is on the mains.