Electric Fuel Pump Failure - M20F....

[funvee]

I know this information is on the site someplace as I think I've read it before here but I can't find anything useful with my "fuel Pump" searches so I thought I'd ask.

 

My M20F electric fuel pump has bit the dust as of today and we are trying to figure out two things...

 

A)  Exactly how do we get to the pump to change it out (the manual says its under the floor board but doesn't show where or even describe the removal at all)

 

Exactly what Dukes model is in the M20F?  I was under the impression that Weldon is the replacement I should be looking at but I don't know which model number is the proper one for the F.  ( I think it is the 18000-1  14v  from AircraftSpruce )

 

Any help or pictures of the location etc for the pump would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Shawn

 

[Marauder]

I know this information is on the site someplace as I think I've read it before here but I can't find anything useful with my "fuel Pump" searches so I thought I'd ask. My M20F electric fuel pump has bit the dust as of today and we are trying to figure out two things... A) Exactly how do we get to the pump to change it out (the manual says its under the floor board but doesn't show where or even describe the removal at all) Exactly what Dukes model is in the M20F? I was under the impression that Weldon is the replacement I should be looking at but I don't know which model number is the proper one for the F. ( I think it is the 18000-1 14v from AircraftSpruce ) Any help or pictures of the location etc for the pump would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Shawn

Shawn -- let me read my logs. I think I had that conversion done. As for where the pump is, it is where the sump is on the left side of your cowl. Directly behind the left cowl flap there is a panel. That panel should have a drain. The pump is in there.

[Marauder]

Shawn - my logs show that I had the kit installed from Mooney. Kit number 940018, using print DTD 9-28-82. I believe this is the Dukes to Weldon conversion kit. I found a thread on MooneySpace that confirms it: http://mooneyspace.com/topic/5658-electric-back-up-fuel-pump/page-2

[funvee]

Shawn -- let me read my logs. I think I had that conversion done. As for where the pump is, it is where the sump is on the left side of your cowl. Directly behind the left cowl flap there is a panel. That panel should have a drain. The pump is in there.

So its not under the floorboard?  or does the panel you mention provide access to the below floorboard area?

 

For the Weldon, I thought it was a direct replacement.  I didn't know there was a kit needed.  I still would need to know what the Weldon cross reference is to the Dukes I guess. 

 

I read through that thread but most of it seems to be referencing M20C solutions but since we need the fuel Injected solution, I believe I need a different model of weldon but I might be misunderstanding.

 

 

Thanks

[Marauder]

Thanks for the comments. I'm just happy I can help. And the Internet makes it a lot easier than back in the 80s and early 90s when there was none and calling people was the only way to find this stuff out. Just paying it forward, for those who helped me over the years...

[Marauder]

Shawn -- let me read my logs. I think I had that conversion done. As for where the pump is, it is where the sump is on the left side of your cowl. Directly behind the left cowl flap there is a panel. That panel should have a drain. The pump is in there. So its not under the floorboard? or does the panel you mention provide access to the below floorboard area? For the Weldon, I thought it was a direct replacement. I didn't know there was a kit needed. I still would need to know what the Weldon cross reference is to the Dukes I guess. I read through that thread but most of it seems to be referencing M20C solutions but since we need the fuel Injected solution, I believe I need a different model of weldon but I might be misunderstanding. Thanks

Read through the entire thread (next page). They reference the 8163A pump you will need on your injected plane. Your mechanic will be able to verify the correct pump, if this is not the one for your plane. If you go to the Weldon, the kit is required and it is a modification, it is not a direct drop in replacement. The fuel lines run under your feet but the pump itself is under the panel I mentioned. When they modified mine, I have now two things sticking out of the panel. One is the sump. The other might be an over pressure relief port. The Dukes can be rebuilt and I found two references to mine being rebuilt in the early 90s before I had the Weldon installed in the late 90s. That pump (knock on wood) is still going strong.

[Marauder]

I should note that you can't just buy the Weldon 8163A pump and install it. You will need to purchase the kit or obtain the drawing. I believe a bracket is required and the drawing I mentioned tells the mechanic the information required to do the modification.

[funvee]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around where we find the pump so that when we look at it tomorrow, we can be as efficient as possible... In the picture I have attached, I put an A and a B... Are either of them close to where it is?

 

Thanks!!

[Immelman]

You're lookin at it all wrong!

 

Get out the creeper, and lie down on the floor looking up at where that photo was taken. Look aft of the left cowl flap. There is a panel about 6-8" across by 18-24" long (sorry for my rough dimensions), probably held on by sheet metal screws. There is a hole (probably two holes) that allow fuel to drain out of that panel... if you pull up on the sump drain ring on the cockpit floor fuel will drain out of one. The other is a vent from your fuel pump, which you don't ever want to see fuel coming out of. You may need to disconnect one of your gear doors to get it depending on how its rigged, to remove and re-install the panel. No biggie on that one.

 

As for the pump, when mine went out I sent it to George's Elecric in Sacramento and they took care of it (it was a motor brush issue, pump part was OK) for a couple hundred dollars. Give them a call, good folks. Hopefully they are still around and have parts.

[jetdriven]

get on a creeper under the plane.  Aft of the left cowl flap is a panel that screws to the underside of the plane on the pilot's side floorboard area. remove that panel the pump is under there. its just forward of the fuel selector.

 

This is an early J, but the F is very similar.

[Marauder]

You're lookin at it all wrong! Get out the creeper, and lie down on the floor looking up at where that photo was taken. Look aft of the left cowl flap. There is a panel about 6-8" across by 18-24" long (sorry for my rough dimensions), probably held on by sheet metal screws. There is a hole (probably two holes) that allow fuel to drain out of that panel... if you pull up on the sump drain ring on the cockpit floor fuel will drain out of one. The other is a vent from your fuel pump, which you don't ever want to see fuel coming out of. You may need to disconnect one of your gear doors to get it depending on how its rigged, to remove and re-install the panel. No biggie on that one. As for the pump, when mine went out I sent it to George's Elecric in Sacramento and they took care of it (it was a motor brush issue, pump part was OK) for a couple hundred dollars. Give them a call, good folks. Hopefully they are still around and have parts.

Good idea! Pull your strainer drain from inside the cockpit. Look where the fuel landed and that is the panel the pump is behind. You may have only one hole in the panel. If I remember correctly, when the Weldon was installed I then had two.

[Marauder]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around where we find the pump so that when we look at it tomorrow, we can be as efficient as possible... In the picture I have attached, I put an A and a B... Are either of them close to where it is? Thanks!!

It's C -- further back and below. Thanks for the picture Byron.

[funvee]

You guys are awesome!  Now it makes sense.  We'll take a peak under that panel tomorrow.

 

Does anyone know if the 18000-a from weldon is an option or is it only the 8163A that can be used (if I can find the drawings for installation needed).  The writeup on the Weldon site seems to imply that the 18000 is the 'cats ass' for Fuel Injected engines.

[Marauder]

You guys are awesome! Now it makes sense. We'll take a peak under that panel tomorrow. Does anyone know if the 18000-a from weldon is an option or is it only the 8163A that can be used (if I can find the drawings for installation needed). The writeup on the Weldon site seems to imply that the 18000 is the 'cats ass' for Fuel Injected engines.

What pump you can use will be dictated by the applicability for your particular plane. If you go the Weldon route you will need the kit to obtain the necessary drawing for the mod which will spell out the appropriate pump (if I remember how that worked correctly).

[mike_elliott]

Here is an option, Call Russ at DG supply in Michigan. He can rebuild your existing one. No kit needed, you know it will fit.

800 446 8160

 

[N601RX]

Shawn - my logs show that I had the kit installed from Mooney. Kit number 940018, using print DTD 9-28-82. I believe this is the Dukes to Weldon conversion kit. I found a thread on MooneySpace that confirms it: http://mooneyspace.com/topic/5658-electric-back-up-fuel-pump/page-2

Do you have a copy of the drawing in your logs?

[JaredDavis]

I recently sent my Dukes 4140-00-21A fuel pump (M20C) to AEROMOTORS, LLC for a rebuild. They replaced just about everything. It was 400 + shipping.

 

Search for "DUKES"

[funvee]

Do you have a copy of the drawing in your logs?

Very good question as that would save a bunch of running around and delays... If anyone has a copy of the drawings for installing a Weldon 18000-a or a Weldon 8163-a in a m20f that they could share, I'll show it to my AME to see what he thinks it'll take to get it done.

Thanks!

PS I'm leaning towards the Weldon replacement after reading the other threads about how poorly made the dukes are. No point in rebuilding a POS.

[sreid]

For $400 at AEROMOTORS, you could probably rebuild the Duke pump three times or more for what it's going to cost you to buy the Weldon, buy the kit, and pay somebody to install the kit.

Steve

[funvee]

For $400 at AEROMOTORS, you could probably rebuild the Duke pump three times or more for what it's going to cost you to buy the Weldon, buy the kit, and pay somebody to install the kit.

Steve

Thanks but I won't be putting a Dukes back in so at this point I'm just trying to make the Weldon swap as smooth for my AME as possible. I hope to be out at the hangar to look under the panel with him this afternoon but if in anyone has drawings or if anyone knows if the 18000-a has been installed in an F model, that'd be a great help!

[Marauder]

Do you have a copy of the drawing in your logs?

 

Me no, my mechanic, I hope so. I will call him and see.

[rbridges]

besides the actual pump, is there a substantial difference b/t the carbureted and fuel injected planes?

[sreid]

Thanks but I won't be putting a Dukes back in so at this point I'm just trying to make the Weldon swap as smooth for my AME as possible. I hope to be out at the hangar to look under the panel with him this afternoon but if in anyone has drawings or if anyone knows if the 18000-a has been installed in an F model, that'd be a great help!

 

The way the Weldon kit works if you choose to go the factory kit route: you buy the 940018-503 kit which is not cheap; I just checked my notes; list price was $2,834 one year ago. The kit comes with a new pump, bracket, fuel lines, miscellaneous other parts, and the installation drawing. You drill out the old bracket, and rivet in the new bracket. The Weldon pump is a slightly different shape and size, so you find a way to fit the slightly different shaped pump and new fuel lines in a fairly tight area with the brake master cylinders and brake lines. Then, you reshape the panel to add a bulge so it will fit back on over the bigger/different shaped pump.

 

To sum it up, it's expensive and the installation is not a trivial matter. It's not a "kit" in the sense that you get a box of parts that just slide right into place and you're done. All of these details make even a series of $400 repairs seem more palatable. Turns out I was wrong, it's not three rebuilds, it's 7 rebuilds just for the parts!

 

Steve

[Immelman]

To the OP, at least try to figure out what failed in case you have not already. Motor, brushes, etc, or the actual wet part of the pump. But, its your money to spend...

[DrBill]

I just went thru this... The panel for the pump is to the LEFT side  of the LEFT nose gear door.   You must disconnect the door actuator to partially close the door to access the row of screws that go along the gear door.

The Pump kit consists of bracket, pump and fuel lines and instructions/drawing.  Cost is about $1.2 AMU. Only available from Mooney. 

My Dukes stopped leaking so We never put the weldon in as the A&P at the time thought it was over his head to make the fuel lines to fit (I did not buy the kit, only a Weldon pump).  Now he's gone and if I need to put it in, I have several other choices to go to to do the fabrication of the fuel lines.  I would guess about 4-6 hrs of labor.

 

BILL