IFR Question

[NotarPilot]

After a short but heated debate with another MS member, I wanted to get the general LEGAL opinion of some other instrument rated pilots on here.  Here goes...

 

Scenario:  You're flying on an IFR flight plan.  You're flying at night in VMC with a solid marine layer between you and your destination airport.  For the purposes of this argument, the airport is at sea level. The tower is closed and the airport has reverted to class G airspace.  Approach clears you for the ILS approach, gives you a frequency change to the CTAF and asks you to cancel IFR on his frequency or gives you a phone number to call and cancel on the ground.  You fly through the marine layer and break out at 700' with the airport clearly in sight.  When can you cancel IFR?

 

A. As soon as you have the airport in sight?

 

B. At 200' MSL?

 

C. On the ground?

[Hank]

In that situation, I would take the smart option and cancel on the ground. "Legal" is not always best or safest.

[Rwsavory]

I think the legal answer is 200 MSL.

 

 

Reference:

 

Night, except as provided in .......

 

3 statute miles

500 feet below

1,000 feet above
2,000 feet horizontal

 

However, I would cancel on the ground.

[DonMuncy]

At 50 ft below the clouds, or 200 MSL in this case. That is the legal answer. I would much prefer to do it on the ground. What if you found an obstruction on the runway and needed to go back up into the clouds.

[201er]

Technically you can cancel at 700ft (or upon reaching uncontrolled airspace if different) and continue uncontrolled IFR in class G as per 91.173 which only requires a flight plan/clearance in controlled airspace only and 61.57c. Still can't find anyone who can prove or disprove this for sure, but based on the rules, IFR in class G is not prohibited and nor is it subject to IFR rules in controlled airspace. Only that the pilot is instrument rated and current.

[Cruiser]

For the purposes of this question, In class G airspace it is legal to fly clear of clouds. Cancel anytime you want.

 

However, I don't know of any airport with an instrument approach that reverts to class G airspace so once you entered the airport environment you would be at a minimum in class E or higher which requires cloud clearances as stated above.

[201er]

Uh uh. You might wanna reacquaint yourself with 91.155. You're thinking class G in daytime, different for VFR minimum at night. And no, there are tons of airports with instrument approaches into class G.

[Piloto]

It depends on ATC radio coverage at low altitude and the accessibility of a phone on the ground. Most of the time I cancel before loosing radio contact. If for any reason I cannot land I climb and contact ATC for other options.

 

José 

[Marauder]

I think this is a trick question IIRC, there were a few cases of enforcement action against pilots who cancelled prior to landing and got snagged on an ASOS reported weather being different than what the pilot declared his/her inflight visibility and ceiling to be. I think one of those cases might have involved a different point of view of what the actual weather was (by an airplane in trail flying the same approach). All I do remember was that it convinced me to cancel on the ground in situations that you described. So I am in the "cancel on the ground" group. Another good reason is that if you can't complete the landing (ex. Deer running across the runway -- first hand experience), good luck trying to pick up a clearance on a missed with airplanes flying the approach behind you.

[N9660M]

Think the answer is B.  The instant you cancel IFR, you're legally obligated to maintain basic VFR weather minimums, which for the purposes of this discussion is 500 feet below the clouds for class G at night. 

 

Prudent option though is wait until you're on the ground.

 

Jim  

[NotarPilot]

Well being prudent and being legal are two different things, can we agree on that? I was looking for the legal answer and I wasn't trying to make it into a trick question, just a scenario I've come across several times myself while flying IFR, into my home airport, at night with a solid marine layer. I thought the answer was B (200 feet MSL) until 201er mentioned the fact that you can fly IFR in class G airspace as long as you're instrument rated in the category of aircraft you're flying and the aircraft you're flying is certified for instrument flight. That fact escaped me but taking that into consideration I might be inclined to think the answer is A. I'll admit I've canceled just after clearing the clouds and seeing the runway clearly (i.e. - no chance of going back into the clouds). Did I mention the runway is 10,000 feet long?

And a deer on the runway out here would be very unlikely at my home airport. You would more likely see a ghetto elk run across and even that is extremely unlikely.

I always think these scenarios are good to discuss as they provide an opportunity to learn something from other pilots so thanks to all who added their 2 pesos.

[PTK]

The legal answer is it's not my priority to cancel IFR!

Especially because tower is closed, stay protected on the IFR plan, monitor and announce on CTAF, land and let ATC cancel it for you. That's legal!

Also being this is a controlled field, even if tower is closed the 1 in/1 out doesn't apply. You may have other IFR and VFR traffic in or out of that field.

[Oscar Avalle]

In that situation, I would take the smart option and cancel on the ground. "Legal" is not always best or safest.

I agree with Hank. On the ground is the safest.

[rbridges]

My answer is A, but I'm open to correction.  I'm based at a non-towered Class E airport.  I routinely cancel my IFR when I have the airport with a clear line of sight.  If I'm too low for radio transmission, I would call when I land.

[rbridges]

For the purposes of this question, In class G airspace it is legal to fly clear of clouds. Cancel anytime you want.

 

However, I don't know of any airport with an instrument approach that reverts to class G airspace so once you entered the airport environment you would be at a minimum in class E or higher which requires cloud clearances as stated above.

 

Isn't class G airspace up to 1200 ft (some areas 700ft) at class E airports?  

[201er]

"Class E airports" are just that, where class E extends to the ground. It's a dashed magenta circle. Otherwise most uncontrolled fields are class G extending to 700 or 1200ft. The ones with instrument approaches tend to be in a magenta gradient shade area with class G to 700.

 

There are times when waiting to cancel on the ground is problematic. There may be no radio frequency available to use on the ground and you gotta remember to use the phone (I tend to forget because I'm in the habit of having a tower or cancelling in the air). Besides that, the airport may be in an extremely busy environment like the one I'm based out of, Linden. Staying IFR to the ground in Linden stops Newark departures and that makes ATC very angry. If conditions do not permit me to cancel in the air, too bad. But generally since minimums are 600/2 anyway, it's almost always possible to cancel in the air and keep them friendly for the next time I need to do an instrument approach.

[PTK]

You can legally cancel IFR in the air when you can guaranty you'll have visual all the way down. If there's any question or you go through another layer then you'd be illegal. There's no impetus to cancel IFR in the air is there?

[John Pleisse]

The answer is B. but prudence welcomes C. I probably would cancel earlier if traffic were holding behind me and I had the runway made.

[jlunseth]

While I agree with 201er that, technically, an IFR rated pilot can fly through uncontrolled airspace without authorization as long as it is done under an IFR flight plan, my concern is that cancelling IFR with ATC means that they close the flight plan.  Therefore, there is no valid open IFR flight plan and IMC in Class G would not be authorized.  As far as when you can cancel is concerned, you can cancel when you are in VFR conditions, meaning 1 mile vis. and clear of clouds.  That would be the technically correct answer.  On the issue of when you should cancel, there is no good reason to cancel until you are on the ground, and lots of good reasons not too.  For one thing, where the deck is as low as 700 things are typically variable and varying, so you could find yourself with a suddenly lowering cloud deck at the approach end and you need your IFR clearance to go missed or do a go around.  For another,  the usual reason to cancel in the air is that radio comm. may be lost as you near the ground.  In my experience, even in the flatlands like the prairie and plains states, if that is going to happen it usual occurs around 3-4,000 thousand, not a few hundred.  Additionally, it is an easy thing to use your cell phone and call Lockheed/FSS and close on the ground.  I just did that (again) a couple of days ago, when I lost ATC at about 3,400.  It is not a big thing and not difficult to do.  I generally don't cancel IFR until on the ground, unless conditions are truly CAVU and there is no possibility of a weather-caused go around or aborted landing.

[Earl]

I agree that the legal answer is B but I would likewise wait to cancel on the ground for safety reasons.  That keeps other IFR traffic from occupying your airspace when you may need to go missed.  Having said that, if others are waiting to fly the approach I would cancel ASAP on the ground.

[Cruiser]

However, I don't know of any airport with an instrument approach that reverts to class G airspace so once you entered the airport environment you would be at a minimum in class E or higher which requires cloud clearances as stated above.

 

Isn't class G airspace up to 1200 ft (some areas 700ft) at class E airports?  

There are many airports with approaches that are always class G airpsace. I was referring to the approach portion of the flight into a controlled airport with a control tower as stated in the original question. There may be a few that are not but for the most part towered airports are controlled all the way to the ground (class E). Assuming the pilot stayed within the approach path course, the airplane would always be in controlled airspace until it reached the airport.

[midlifeflyer]

My answer is A, but I'm open to correction.  I'm based at a non-towered Class E airport.  I routinely cancel my IFR when I have the airport with a clear line of sight.  If I'm too low for radio transmission, I would call when I land.

 

I agree with you. The hypothetical states the airport is Class G.  Although the question doesn't tell us where Class E begins above the airport, the lowest it can begin is 700 AGL (assuming the absence of some unique airspace configuration). According to the question, that's the altitude where the the pilot breaks out of the marine layer and sees the airport. So, once breaking out, the pilot is below 700 AGL and  in uncontrolled airspace. 

 

IFR without an IFR clearance is legal in uncontrolled airspace. So, at that point he may cancel his IFR clearance (which applies only in controlled airspace) and continue his descent to landing under IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

 

There can of course be other factors that could change the answer. For example, the presence of other aircraft in nearby controlled airspace can make otherwise "legal" IFR in uncontrolled airspace reckless operation under 91.13 (I always though it interesting that 91.13 was the "unlucky" all-purpose gotcha for pilots). But I agree that A is the technicaly correct answer under the hypothetical.

 

Smart to cancel IFR when there is a solid overcast at 700 AGL? Probably not, but that wasn't the question.

[NotarPilot]

I originally thought the correct answer was B but I'm now convinced it's A.

[chrisk]

From a legal standpoint, if your in class G, you could cancel your IFR.  Breaking out of the clouds is not necessary.  Personally, I'd wait until I got on the ground.

[gregwatts]

 

 

IFR without an IFR clearance is legal in uncontrolled airspace. So, at that point he may cancel his IFR clearance (which applies only in controlled airspace) and continue his descent to landing under IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

 

.

 

Are you sure about that? You cannot cancel IFR unless you can maintain VFR.