New member, Old question :)

[Robert C.]

Hi everyone, joined the board recently as I hope to join the ranks of aircraft owners (and IFR rated pilots) in the next 12 months and a Mooney (Eagle or Ovation) is very much on the shortlist, together with the DA40.

 

My "mission" is mostly regional $100 hamburger runs and visits to fun locations in New England like Lake Placid, MVY, Ticonderoga, etc. i.e., lots of 100-300nm trips. And then the occasional day of just sightseeing and practice pattern work and manouvers. Mostly my wife and I but every now and then with friends.

 

But with family and friends in Chicago and with daughters in Colorado and BC, Canada (I'm CT based) it is awfully tempting to have a long range cruiser and to fly ourselves there a few times per year rather than going commercial. Especially after I retire and can be more flexible.

 

When you research aircraft you quickly discover that each has a “rep.”

 

• Mooney’s are supposedly hard to land and small on the inside.
• Cirrus are supposedly no fun to hand fly due to the trim
• Columbias are supposedly expensive to maintain
• Diamonds are supposedly no fun at all in bumpy weather and have hard seats (on long flights) but are great fun to hand fly.

 

Then when reading the boards carefully you discover that to land a Mooney or a Cirrus or a DA40 well you have the same recipe….nail the speed over the fence and all is well! Mooneys are actually just as roomy as Bonanzas, Mooney's are fun to hand-fly as well albeit in a different way than a DA40, etc. etc.

 

There probably isn't an aircraft that will do both equally well. I get the impression that the Mooney is better/more comfortable in the cruising role and the DA40 in the local/regional putzing around role.

 

So here is the question: what, if anything, is making a Mooney (Eagle/Ovation) less suitable/fun/relaxing for bumming around the neighborhood? Or do you feel it would suit my mixed mission scenario just fine?

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/input.

 

Robert

 

 

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I have an Acclaim, which is more or less a turbo Ovation. I find the Acclaim to be no fun at all for putzing around locally on weekends. It's too fast, too heavy on the controls, and ill-suited for pattern work. It's really built to go high, far and fast on autopilot.

 

Prior to the Acclaim I had an Encore. It had a lighter touch and was more enjoyable for local flying, but not really good for pattern work either.

 

Neither plane was difficult to land after a little practice.

[KSMooniac]

 

So here is the question: what, if anything, is making a Mooney (Eagle/Ovation) less suitable/fun/relaxing for bumming around the neighborhood? Or do you feel it would suit my mixed mission scenario just fine?

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/input.

 

Robert

 

I'd say there is nothing that would cause you to enjoy local flying in an Eagle or Ovation any less than any other plane.  Of the ones you listed, the Mooney will have the lowest total operating costs except possibly the DA40, but I'm not familiar with them.  You could also fly the Mooney at DA40 speeds and burn less fuel I suspect if you're not going anywhere.  For the longer trips, the Mooney will certainly deliver the lowest cost per mile.

 

Cabin comfort is of course subjective and dependent on your tastes, body type, etc.  You'll just have to try one on and see for yourself.  The seating position is like a sports car with a low seat and lots of leg room and head room.  I've flown up to 6 hours at a time and think it is just fine, but YMMV.  

 

Flying in your part of the country year-round means TKS is highly desirable, so factor that into your wish list unless your schedule will be very flexible.  I know there are some FIKI Ovations, but I don't know about Eagles.  I don't think Diamond has a TKS option, but the others do.

[John Pleisse]

And a D-AYY, W-H-A-T???!!!????

[PMcClure]

I learned to fly in a DA40 (along with an old C172). It was very enjoyable to fly and a very fine airplane. But, it was not so great of a cross country plane. I found it slow and the big canopy let in a lot of sun shine and glare. My Ovation is an excellent cross country flyer and I still have fun flying around locally. But I would say it is at home on long and far flights. Sight seeing from 2000' is exactly the best mission for my Ovation. But hey, give me a sunny day and some Avgas, you won't hear me complain. 

 

I also had a Bo which was a great XC plane and hauler. Easier to load than a Mooney but used a lot more gas and more expensive to maintain. I sold it and came back to a Mooney, so that should tell you what I think.

[Will W]

I'm happy to weigh in on this one.

 

First off, when I got into my Mooney, all choices were made based on my size.  I'm 6'8" and i teach at a Cirrus school in the 20/22 and I also teach in the Diamond 40/42.  The Diamond for me is a clown show.  When the canopy is open and we are climbing in, my head is inches above the fuselage of the aircraft.  I can't fit to save my life... but I do make myself fit because I like flying.  Would I choose to do this on a long mission I'm flying with my girlfriend?  NO WAY

 

My mission takes me from the east coast to Texas and Missouri which the Missouri side needs FIKI.  Again, I had to be comfortable long term (4-6 hours).  The Cirrus price point just isn't as great.  To get a known icing SR22, I was going to be paying 2 thousand more on any of those trips and that is per trip.  Also, when I get in to teach in the Cirrus, I have to recline the seat all the way back to again, keep my head in the aircraft.

 

The first time I got into a Mooney Ovation, wow... it was like fireworks going off for me.  Getting in the Ovation, the seat was slid all the way back as it is for getting in and out of the plane and I was shocked for the first time in my life that I couldn't really reach the pedals of the aircraft.  First notch forward of that was a perfect fit.  Then I noticed how my head is several inches away from the ceiling.  I couldn't believe it!  It was great.  Price point was great and speed was great!  Yes, I do mess around in the traffic pattern still with the Cessna 172's.  Mind you my speed brakes are out to slow down enough but man, is it ever fun and smooth to land.  I can take all kinds of luggage, not even be full fuel and reach all of my destinations or fly for 4 hours then make a planned stop for the restroom.

 

If you are ever in the Northern Virginia area, I can get you sitting in and/or flying any of the above listed aircraft and let you give it a shot (Mooney would be riding along due to insurance, the rest are on flight school insurance so it can just be a lesson).  I'm just someone that had specific needs relating to fitting in an aircraft.  Oh, and I love how people are shocked to hear a 6'8" guy getting into a Mooney.  They hear it's small too.  Let the aircraft fit your needs and your mission.  This was just my story.  More stories to come, I'm sure.

 

On a different note, PMcClure, you have the plane with the article written about it for the Ovation series.  http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20R%20Evaluation/M20R.htm

 

It was a great write up on the capabilities of the aircraft and I loved reading the article late at night deciding.  Best decision I've made with airplanes!

[carusoam]

This is mostly a question of economics... And how you define "fun"...

Some people are only comfortable bumming around the skies at 5 gallons per hour, nicely fitting into the tight and full, Saturday morning traffic pattern.

Other people are equally comfortable doing the same, alone on Tuesdays at 15 gallons per hour.

If your nest is empty and paid for, it is more enjoyable to blow through 15 gallons on a Tuesday... Nobody likes being passed in the traffic pattern.

Instead of buzzing the pattern, consider precision flying practice IFR approaches (being in the system, of course). Some Mooney guys really dig this...

A long body Mooney can do both, but economically speaking, it's like bringing the proverbial Uzi to a knife fight.

Life can be shorter than expected, fly as fast as economically possible!

-a-

[Hank]

I always thought the man with the Uzi wins the knife fight, as long as it's not empty.

My C runs around the pattern nicely with Cessnas, does practice approaches at speed and slowed to 90 knots, and travels well although slower and with less luggage than a long body.

It's all what you want to pay for.

[aviatoreb]

I can weight in on this since I owned a DA40 for over 2.5 years before I moved up to my current mooney rocket.

 

I am tall also, 6'4'' - I will echo what dimondan said - the Mooney is VERY comfortable for a tall pilot.  I sat in Cirrus, and Bonanza - and of course Diamond (and Cessna and Piper).  Mooney is by far the best fit for a tall pilot.  The leg room is sports car like low and in front and you can set the seat to fully extend.  I am short wasted and had 

 

Yes, Diamond DA40 seats are hard and get uncomfortable after an hour or so.

 

The DA40 is definitely a more forgiving plane and well suited for a beginner's primary training.  Compare it to a C172 in that sense.  But it also can cruise much faster than a C172 - call it a 145TAS cruiser on just about 10gph.  Mine would do 150 on a good day if I push it hard.  So not tooo far off a M20J mooney.  Remember, hourly burn rate for fuel is only relevant for flying if you are not going anywhere.  miles per gallon is what is relevant for cross country and the mooney does pretty well since it is very fast/slick.

 

A DA40 does require decent landing habits and coming in one speed just like a Mooney, but the mooney just requires more precision of that sort.  So a Mooney is harder to land, but you get totally used to it.  Its not a big deal.

 

A Mooney is stiffer with less flex in the wings than a DA40 - so it rides the bumps more like a stiff sorts car on a bumpy road.  But the DA40 has a much lighter wing loading than my M20K rocket....wing loading is what you want to look at and wing loading is very different in the mooney line from a M20A all the way up to a M20TN.   I find my mooney to be a much more stable platform for confidence in weather.

 

You are right - the DA40 is a fun cruiser and good for pattern flying that can be enlisted to cross country.  My mooney is one of the fastest moneys - the m20k rocket - so it cruises as much as 75kts faster than the DA40, and much higher (often that can be the difference between bouncing around in the clouds or cruising above in the sunshine and smooth air but maybe with a mask on - which is no big deal and kind of fun).

 

I disagree a little bit with Joe - although he has a long body and I have a mid length body.  But I still use my airplane to "cruise around the pattern" - not literally but I do sometimes fly very locally, such as ifr approach practice at the local airports, or I go to the $100 hamburger run to - my closest favorite spot is Saranac Lake (KSLK is very close to one of your target destinations - KLKP), but now it takes ~12 minutes where it used to be ~18 or 20 minutes.  Joe got a second airplane to fly slow....and I envy that just because airplanes are awesome and a tail dragger as he got sounds like fun...but in my opinion even at a higher fuel burn rate it is cheaper to just use the one airplane ou have than go out and buy a second airplane to save money on fuel or maintenance....cuz remember an airplane needs to be flown regularly anyway to keep it healthy.  One is about all I can keep up with.

 

A mooney with a turbo (so you can fly high) and tks - and power to match is a whole different category than a da40, but the cirrus and columbia are in the same category.  Do look at the Cessna P210 as well.  And the bonanzas.  Mooney is my favorite of them all since it is like a sports car.  Mooney is the porche sports car feel of the bunch.  A DA40 is a lovely plane and I will always have a soft spot for it - very fun to fly - it would be a mazda miata if it were a car equivalent (a fun run about ... too small for me!  fun for short drives but uncomfortable for me for a long drive...not so good in the snow), a bonanza is a BMW, a p210 is a ford truck....(all good cars)....ok guys help me out - what is a cirrus and what is a columbia?

 

I think if you are thinking da40 then you should be looking at an m20j since of the more modern airplanes, cost, speed (m20j is faster but in the same category as we are talking 145 on 10 vs 155+ on 10), number of systems, and so forth.

 

I really dislike G1000 in DA40.  Diamond aircraft is very lethargic certifying each upgrade...eg, svt, waas and so forth - and you may or may not get it and if you do it is at a massive expense.  I would much sooner get a steam guage airplane and convert to glass as a G500 if that is what I wish - since then you have control and flexibility to upgrade over the years as new things come (ADSB, and such).  E.g., it is 12k t o upgrade (software upgrade) a G1000 da40 to svt and it is 25k to upgrde to waas the same g1000.  Meanwhile I think for 14k you can install from scratch a aspen panel with the svt upgrade for 14k installed into a steam guage da40, or a ~25k isn't it to put the two panel g500 with svt?  The DA42 people cannot get these upgrades at any cost since DIA is a pain in the neck.

[Jeff_S]

Here are a few additional thoughts that build on what others have said.

 

1) I tested a DA40 before deciding on a Mooney. I am 6'3" so fairly tall. Although I didn't have a problem with that, I found the seat very uncomfortable. But as noted above, the DA40 has a much lighter wing loading, which makes it less stable in turbulence. Even as an experienced flyer, we were out on a bumpy spring day and I got a bit queasy because the airplane bounced more with every bump, and those hard seats don't absorb ANY of the turbulence. Knowing my wife is prone to motion sickness to begin with, that right there DQ'd the DA40 for me.

 

2) As I wrote somewhere else recently, I love my J simply because it has a nice combination of being able to economically meander on local flights, but still enough get-up-and-go for longer trips. So you have to decide how many of these "longer" trips you're going to take. If it's two or three a year, and you might save one or two hours flying an Ovation instead of a J, then it may not be worth it. If you expect more than a half-dozen such trips a year, I would think the increased speed would be handy, but you'll pay for it in higher operating and maintenance costs. Just something to consider.

 

3) If you regularly expect to put three or four adults in the plane, you'll want a long-body (Ovation, etc.). The J will seat medium sized adults in back but it will not be the most luxurious ride imaginable.  In 3.5 years of having my J I had the back seat filled exactly one time, though, and he said it was "fine".  This was for a local IFR check-up ride (he was a budding CFI-I) so we bounced around some clouds and did a few approaches.

[jlunseth]

I have a 231.  It is not at all hard to land, frankly I do not understand where the "hard to land" rep comes from.  I would not have bought it if my objective was to do pattern work.  I am working on my commercial right now, and so doing pattern work and maneuvers.  The aircraft does not make them unusually difficult, it is just that the aircraft would prefer to be doing something else.  Going somewhere.  It is more suited for that.  But after a couple thousand landings and takeoffs (and so far, an equal number of each) doing more in the pattern is just not that thrilling an experience.  During the summer I occasionally have to go out to the airport and do three takeoffs and landings to stay night current.  I try to keep it around a half hour and be done with it. 

 

There are much more interesting things to do with a K.   Which altitude should I fly at, FL210 or 6k, what do I do about the weather over my intended airport of landing 2 hours away, how do I skirt that Tstorm ahead, is there a concern about ice in the cloud layers I want to go through. 

[gsengle]

Robert - your mission sounds very much like mine, and I just happen to also be a New Englander - mostly from CT, but now base my aircraft at 7B2 Northampton MA.  I fly around NE, and a couple of times a year take a longer trip or 3 (Oshkosh, flew all the way out to Seattle, Florida, etc).  After owning a Piper Arrow, I moved up to a '96 Ovation.  I couldn't be happier.  I would net out my decision for you this way.

 

1)  A quality aircraft - the Mooney's I've seen are very well made.  They feel and fly solid.  The push rod controls contribute to the feel.  Hand flies great (working on commercial maneuvers - loosely shaped like a mini P51 Mustang) but is stable due to high wing loading and very strong rigid structure.  So, I enjoy flying it either by hand locally or as a 'personal airliner' including great for instrument work.  The cage around the passenger compartment seems to increase crashworthiness.  The one piece wing spar never breaks.

 

2)  A beautiful aircraft.  They just look fast.

 

3)  Not a composite aircraft.  I don't want my plane to melt in the sun, or have to be white to not melt in the sun.  I want it to be easy to repair.

 

4)  FAST and efficient.  I like going 175kts reliably on 14gph.  Or throttle back and fly at 10gph, its still way faster than my arrow was at the burn.

 

5)  Specific to the Ovation: NOT turbocharged, no cowl flaps, etc.  About as simple to operate as any complex aircraft.  Speed brakes are a must have.  This reduces the pain to start up to fly around the patch problem.  I do have TKS which is nice to have, but you could totally live without.  The long body means it is big in back too..  And the long bodies I hear are easier to land than the mid length, etc.

 

6)  Maintenance.  My last annual cost very little (well maintained plane).  I find my maintenance bills have been very low.  YMMV

 

7)  Insurance.  Our community is pretty good and that contributes to relatively low insurance rates for retracts.  That said, I had lots of complex hours in an arrow before moving up, and an instrument rating.  I hear that a Cirrus can cost 4X as much to insure.  This is NON TRIVIAL cost.

 

The only downside is that, yes, it isn't for low and slow.  It isn't a fly with the doors off taildragger.  It isn't a 172.  If I had my way my second plane would be an LSA cub or Kitfox...  But I have just one!

 

FINALLY - where in CT?  You might get to see/ride in my Ovation...

 

Greg

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi everyone, joined the board recently as I hope to join the ranks of aircraft owners (and IFR rated pilots) in the next 12 months and a Mooney (Eagle or Ovation) is very much on the shortlist, together with the DA40.

 

My "mission" is mostly regional $100 hamburger runs and visits to fun locations in New England like Lake Placid, MVY, Ticonderoga, etc. i.e., lots of 100-300nm trips. And then the occasional day of just sightseeing and practice pattern work and manouvers. Mostly my wife and I but every now and then with friends.

 

But with family and friends in Chicago and with daughters in Colorado and BC, Canada (I'm CT based) it is awfully tempting to have a long range cruiser and to fly ourselves there a few times per year rather than going commercial. Especially after I retire and can be more flexible.

 

When you research aircraft you quickly discover that each has a “rep.”

 

• Mooney’s are supposedly hard to land and small on the inside.
• Cirrus are supposedly no fun to hand fly due to the trim
• Columbias are supposedly expensive to maintain
• Diamonds are supposedly no fun at all in bumpy weather and have hard seats (on long flights) but are great fun to hand fly.

 

Then when reading the boards carefully you discover that to land a Mooney or a Cirrus or a DA40 well you have the same recipe….nail the speed over the fence and all is well! Mooneys are actually just as roomy as Bonanzas, Mooney's are fun to hand-fly as well albeit in a different way than a DA40, etc. etc.

 

There probably isn't an aircraft that will do both equally well. I get the impression that the Mooney is better/more comfortable in the cruising role and the DA40 in the local/regional putzing around role.

 

So here is the question: what, if anything, is making a Mooney (Eagle/Ovation) less suitable/fun/relaxing for bumming around the neighborhood? Or do you feel it would suit my mixed mission scenario just fine?

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/input.

 

Robert

[Robert C.]

Thank you one and all for your thoughtful responses.

 

I'm reading it as confirmation that the Ovation/Eagle will allow me to enjoy shorter area flights just fine, and has the distinct edge in longer regional and cross-country (as in cross-USA) flights.

 

I'm 5'8" so the size/fit issue doesn't apply as much to me as to some of you

 

Reading the DA boards I'm picking up real nervousness about the upgrade path for the G1000 and ADS-B apparently because of Diamond's heel dragging on the software upgrades, so I really can relate to Erik's point about buying a steam gauge Mooney and then upgrading to the G500 down the road.

 

 

@Greg: I'm flying out of Danbury (KDXR) in Archers. Member of the Flying20 club that is based there. You're about 70nm away from the looks of it and I'd be happy to fly up some day and buy you lunch for the chance to pick your brain and sit in your Ovation.

 

Again, thanks everyone. This was very helpful.

[gsengle]

Robert - why don't you send me a note to gsengle@gmail.com to arrange.  7B2 is a very nice airfield, you'd be welcome most days after work, weekends require more arranging but doable.

 

 

Thank you one and all for your thoughtful responses.

 

I'm reading it as confirmation that the Ovation/Eagle will allow me to enjoy shorter area flights just fine, and has the distinct edge in longer regional and cross-country (as in cross-USA) flights.

 

I'm 5'8" so the size/fit issue doesn't apply as much to me as to some of you

 

Reading the DA boards I'm picking up real nervousness about the upgrade path for the G1000 and ADS-B apparently because of Diamond's heel dragging on the software upgrades, so I really can relate to Erik's point about buying a steam gauge Mooney and then upgrading to the G500 down the road.

 

 

@Greg: I'm flying out of Danbury (KDXR) in Archers. Member of the Flying20 club that is based there. You're about 70nm away from the looks of it and I'd be happy to fly up some day and buy you lunch for the chance to pick your brain and sit in your Ovation.

 

Again, thanks everyone. This was very helpful.

[gsengle]

To my list I would also add...  the Ovation can carry more fuel legally than the Eagle, and supposedly has better soundproofing.  Also, fancier paint jobs, and I believe better autopilot, etc. I'm sure there are other differences.

 

But most important of all - REAL AIRPLANES CAN RETRACT THEIR GEAR.  imho.  over and out.

 

Thank you one and all for your thoughtful responses.

 

I'm reading it as confirmation that the Ovation/Eagle will allow me to enjoy shorter area flights just fine, and has the distinct edge in longer regional and cross-country (as in cross-USA) flights.

 

I'm 5'8" so the size/fit issue doesn't apply as much to me as to some of you

 

Reading the DA boards I'm picking up real nervousness about the upgrade path for the G1000 and ADS-B apparently because of Diamond's heel dragging on the software upgrades, so I really can relate to Erik's point about buying a steam gauge Mooney and then upgrading to the G500 down the road.

 

 

@Greg: I'm flying out of Danbury (KDXR) in Archers. Member of the Flying20 club that is based there. You're about 70nm away from the looks of it and I'd be happy to fly up some day and buy you lunch for the chance to pick your brain and sit in your Ovation.

 

Again, thanks everyone. This was very helpful.

[carusoam]

Ovations are the coolest!

Fastest, four seat, N/A, factory built airplane on the planet...

The 310hp ones are the most special.

-a-